Argument by performance: God Has no Messengers

[sam ex muslim]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

 

[MNoBody]

the message of the prophets is written on the subway walls the tenement halls

 

[Terry Sampson]

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !

I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

I am speechless.

 

[danieldemol]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

Thanks for sharing your insights

 

[izzy88]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

This is one of the main things that's made me doubt Christianity's legitimacy. I was an atheist for my entire adult life until less than a year ago I decided to "try out" Catholicism because I had come to find so much truth in it over the last couple years (long story that I won't get into). Anyway, I still have several doubts about it, and this is definitely one of them. Though, for Catholics it's a bit different because we believe that the Church is the true authority, not scripture. The Magisterium (the term for all of the bishops leading the Church, of which the Apostles were the first) passes down the teachings of Christ through the ages, so we aren't dependent on the Scriptures in the same way that the rest of the Judeo-Christian religions are.

But I think there reasoning still applies: wouldn't there be a better way? If God wanted us to be able to trust that his message was being relayed to us accurately, couldn't he have come up with a system better than a group of people just passing it down - especially when that group is a bunch of sex offenders?

Despite my doubts, though, I'm still committed to it; I've discovered far too much truth in it to just drop it that easily. A large part of faith is having the humility to recognize that we're just some flawed and fallable human being; just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. We aren't omniscient, and God's ways are not our ways. It's entirely possible that there's a legitimate reason for God deciding not to do things in the most efficient way; that in reality it's actually the best way, in the grand scheme of things. We simply can't know.

 

[sam ex muslim]

the message of the prophets is written on the subway walls the tenement halls
View attachment 39066

Hi, could you elaborate please. I have a feeling you misunderstood my post.

 

[sam ex muslim]

I am speechless.

I hope in a good way. Thanks

 

[sam ex muslim]

Thanks for sharing your insights

Thank you.

 

[sam ex muslim]

This is one of the main things that's made me doubt Christianity's legitimacy. I was an atheist for my entire adult life until less than a year ago I decided to "try out" Catholicism because I had come to find so much truth in it over the last couple years (long story that I won't get into). Anyway, I still have several doubts about it, and this is definitely one of them. Though, for Catholics it's a bit different because we believe that the Church is the true authority, not scripture. The Magisterium (the term for all of the bishops leading the Church, of which the Apostles were the first) passes down the teachings of Christ through the ages, so we aren't dependent on the Scriptures in the same way that the rest of the Judeo-Christian religions are.

But I think there reasoning still applies: wouldn't there be a better way? If God wanted us to be able to trust that his message was being relayed to us accurately, couldn't he have come up with a system better than a group of people just passing it down - especially when that group is a bunch of sex offenders?

Despite my doubts, though, I'm still committed to it; I've discovered far too much truth in it to just drop it that easily. A large part of faith is having the humility to recognize that we're just some flawed and fallable human being; just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. We aren't omniscient, and God's ways are not our ways. It's entirely possible that there's a legitimate reason for God deciding not to do things in the most efficient way; that in reality it's actually the best way, in the grand scheme of things. We simply can't know.

I apologize if I added more doubts or negative feelings. I see Jesus as a great Kabbalist and there are many hidden messages in his words about divinity and spiritualism. I just think that religions are Man-made and they are hindering our spiritual evolution. I wish you succeed and find your path.

 

[izzy88]

I apologize if I added more doubts or negative feelings. I see Jesus as a great Kabbalist and there are many hidden messages in his words about divinity and spiritualism. I just think that religions are Man-made and they are hindering our spiritual evolution. I wish you succeed and find your path.

No worries; I'm well-aware of the doubts I have, and I've been studying Catholicism intensely for months now so I don't know if there are any more doubts to find that I haven't already wrestled with.

Just a year ago I would've agreed with you that religions are man-made and hindering our progress, yet somehow here I am. It's been a shock and a mystery, embracing something I found ridiculous for so much of my life. But I'm dedicated to doing my best to follow the truth wherever it leads me, and this is where I've been lead. Time will tell if it's truly the end of the line.

Thanks for your kind words.

 

[Heyo]

Hi, could you elaborate please. I have a feeling you misunderstood my post.

 

[osgart]

Dictionaries are far better then holy books. Experience too. I have a book of virtues where the author examines each word of good character. If I want true words of good report, I certainly don't need them mingled with myth presented as literal history.

The idea of studying holy books for the salvation of my soul never sat right with me neither. In depth study just to get the faith contrivance exactly right so that I can consider myself a true believer. Not practical, or plain enough to be the truth.

Interpretations galore. Denominations, sects, and no simplicity in the teachings.

What is so simple about Jesus that even a child can understand it?

I have to Read the book and try to corroborate the book with outside evidence all for the saving of my soul.
Or to take the reading of a holy book as sole absolute evidence for its truth. That's not even close to being reasonable.



Where's the sanity in this? I don't see any.

 

[PearlSeeker]

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Do you think there is no message in the "book" of nature? What about human conscious?

I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

What if some enlightened individuals had more intimate and pure connection with the same Source (Infinite intelligence behind universe) and others just misunderstood it? Humanity has been in constant process of growth and learning.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I don't really get what you're saying about God having no messengers.

God had had a number of prophets. And a number of people willing to love and obey him. To spread his message.

 

[PureX]

I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

Having created all as it is, one would presume it is as intended. So why would any messages even be needed?

 

[sam ex muslim]

Thanks. I am aware of that nice song. I assumed there is more to be said.

 

[sam ex muslim]

Do you think there is no message in the "book" of nature? What about human consciousness.

What if some enlightened individuals had more intimate and pure connection with the same Source (Infinite intelligence behind universe) and others just misunderstood it? Humanity has been in constant process of growth and learning.

In the context of Abrahamic religion, religion was delivered through a particular human messenger and not through the book of nature nor through our individual human consciences.

Enlightened individuals have done great service to themselves. The question is when will you seek the path of enlightenment and get your own connection ?

 

[sam ex muslim]

I don't really get what you're saying about God having no messengers.

God had had a number of prophets. And a number of people willing to love and obey him. To spread his message.

Are you referring to Mohammed ? Because I am sure he wants your head to be chopped off for not following him. If not Mohammed then which prophets are you talking about ? Is your definition of prophet enlightened beings or the Abrahamic religion types ?

 

[sam ex muslim]

Having created all as it is, one would presume it is as intended. So why would any messages even be needed?

Let us presume God had Intentions just like we humans have intentions, so according to Abrahamic religion, he sent messengers in the way I already described in my original post. Can you not see the mis-match of his performance in creation vs his performance in sending a messengers ?

Assume you are a teacher and you have 2 assignments in front of you for the same student, yet the hand writings are different !!
One possibility is that the student was sick or in hurry when he wrote the second assignment that could explain the difference in the hand writing.(God is not weak nor sick it is omnipotent so the performance should be consistent ).
Another possibility someone helped him and wrote the assignment on his behalf.( Now we presume there are 2 Gods, one created the universe and another is assigning messengers to earth).

 

[PearlSeeker]

In the context of Abrahamic religion, religion was delivered through a particular human messenger and not through the book of nature nor through our individual human consciences.

Enlightened individuals have done great service to themselves. The question is when will you seek the path of enlightenment and get your own connection ?

I meant the book of nature and voice of human conscience (not consciousness - sorry, it was a typing error). I agree with seeking personal connection.

Some Bible verses to think about:

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
Without speech or language,
without a sound to be heard,
their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
(Psalms 19)

But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
(Deuteronomy 30:14)