Argument by performance: God Has no Messengers

[sam ex muslim]

Having created all as it is, one would presume it is as intended. So why would any messages even be needed?

If I have misunderstood your post. apology just ignore my previous comments. Scholars of Abrahamic religions assume that since God created humans, he must have a purpose or a message for them, which makes the messengers a necessity to deliver such message. In my post I am trying to argue that such necessity for a messengers especially in the way described in Abrahamic religions is actually contradicting the nature of God.

 

[PureX]

If I have misunderstood your post. apology just ignore my previous comments. Scholars of Abrahamic religions assume that since God created humans, he must have a purpose or a message for them, which makes the messengers a necessity to deliver such message. In my post I am trying to argue that such necessity for a messengers especially in the way described in Abrahamic religions is actually contradicting the nature of God.

I agree on both counts: that God would have no logical need to 'message' creation. And that even if such a need were to occur, using individual humans to transmit the message would be both ineffective and illogical.

On the other hand, though, I think the basic idea that some 'glimpse' or 'spark' of our Creator's 'mind and spirit' could manifest within us, and that we might feel obliged to share such an experience, and our understanding of it, with others, is not an illogical or ineffective phenomenon to presume to occur. But, being that it's so subjective in nature, the rest of us should remain skeptical of it's proposed authenticity and interpretation.

 

[MNoBody]

Thanks. I am aware of that nice song. I assumed there is more to be said.

a picture may say a thousand words, but to explain to another is like explaining a joke...it loses an important element in the explaining.
reminds me of the zen stories where people go to the holy guys and ask questions to which the guys respond with koans and enigmatic cryptic comments....and that for thousands of years to now is considered normal behavior.....and part of the process apparently.
however that seems evasive and could take much time, if ever....

consider how the peoples deemed more primitive seem to have some deeper connection with nature in many cases....they can survive where others would perish, nature seems to be a more open book in unique ways that so called civilized people have lost touch with..
in any case, they usually say that nature is alive and speaks all the time if one has eyes to see and the ears to hear, otherwise it is just a pretty landscape picture of a possibly hostile world.

imagine the Avatar movie to see the 2 sides of the dichotomy
[they touched on these thematic concepts somewhat]

 

[Twilight Hue]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

That's a good train of logic. Imagine if that's all you ever got was delegates representing a king somewhere.

You would see the delegates all the time, carrying scrolls, books, seals, and all the other kind of 'evidence' but never ever, in a gazillion years have ever seen hide nor hair of the actual king.

You would start to think if you were being bamboozled by the so-called 'delegates'. And rightfully so.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Having created all as it is, one would presume it is as intended. So why would any messages even be needed?

Because creation would suffice for life to evolve but for further development cooperation in free will is needed.

 

[Terry Sampson]

the message of the prophets is written on the subway walls the tenement halls

By the by, just thought I'd say, belatedly, "Clever post!!!" To wit: the cartoon and portion of verse 5 of Simon and Garfunkel's 'The Sound of Silence'." (which, for them what don't know, reads:

• And the people bowed and prayed
  To the neon god they made
  And the sign flashed out its warning
  In the words that it was forming
  And the sign said:
  "The words of the prophets are
  Written on the subway walls
  And tenement halls
  And whispered in the sound of silence."

 

[PureX]

Because creation would suffice for life to evolve but for further development cooperation in free will is needed.

How does that require interference from the Creator? Especially when that Creator 'wrote the program' that allows/calls for our further development.

 

[2ndpillar]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

Actually, the LORD gave his message of the 10 commandments (Deut 5), by his voice, directly to the house of Israel, to be a light to the nations. The nations and Israel instead has chosen darkness in the form of the traditions of men, and false prophets, such as Paul, Baha, and Mohammed, among others. Men were given an option of choosing Truth over darkness, and yet have chosen the message of Satan, the serpent, and his messengers. As we at the "end of the age", the chickens will come home to roost. (Matthew 13:38-43)

 

[Kenny]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

As I read this.... I am so glad He actually sent real prophets. Who knows what you would have created.

 

[danieldemol]

Because creation would suffice for life to evolve but for further development cooperation in free will is needed.

But is co-operation with God required or co-operation with the middleman required? That is the question being posed here.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Let us presume God had Intentions just like we humans have intentions, so according to Abrahamic religion, he sent messengers in the way I already described in my original post. Can you not see the mis-match of his performance in creation vs his performance in sending a messengers ?

Assume you are a teacher and you have 2 assignments in front of you for the same student, yet the hand writings are different !!
One possibility is that the student was sick or in hurry when he wrote the second assignment that could explain the difference in the hand writing.(God is not weak nor sick it is omnipotent so the performance should be consistent ).
Another possibility someone helped him and wrote the assignment on his behalf.( Now we presume there are 2 Gods, one created the universe and another is assigning messengers to earth).

From the very first days of creation, we know that Yahweh's Word contains great power. As a matter of fact, when Yahweh speaks, matter immediately obeys. Whether that is in Genesis 1:3 where Elohim said 'Let there be light' and there was light, or something else. Sometimes Yahweh doesn't even need to speak and matter obeys His will. Yahweh is powerful. However, just because His Word is not adhered to by the human family, shouldn't lead you to believe that there is a great inconsistency. Yahweh's Word has the ability to change us in to better, righteous, obedient people, but unlike matter, human beings have the choice to disobey. Why not take this as proof that Yahweh is merciful in that He has the power to force us humans to do His will just like matter, but He chooses not to even use a fraction of His great power but wants to see imperfect humans to subject to His will on their own. And humans should be able to see the clarity and perfection of His Word. He has given us all thinking capabilities able to comprehend the perfect plan of salvation.

Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of Yahweh hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

All good arguments. My question for you is, why then the real creator who is so intelligent, does not send a true Messenger, or does not appear among us, to tell us, those previous messengers and religions are false, and were not from Him?

 

[danieldemol]

All good arguments. My question for you is, why then the real creator who is so intelligent, does not send a true Messenger, or does not appear among us, to tell us, those previous messengers and religions are false, and were not from Him?

With an easy answer - because God does not care what we believe in provided that it is not self destructive. Eg Monotheism, Pantheism, Atheism, Polytheism, God does not care

 

[InvestigateTruth]

With an easy answer - because God does not care what we believe in provided that it is not self destructive. Eg Monotheism, Pantheism, Atheism, Polytheism, God does not care

Well, by the same logic, apparently He doesnt care, if inocent childeren get raped, killed, women are tortured by stoning, animals are killed. He doesnt seem to do anything about it. What kind of god is that? Maybe only a delusion?

 

[danieldemol]

Well, by the same logic, apparently He doesnt care, if inocent childeren get raped, killed, women are tortured by stoning, animals are killed. He doesnt seem to do anything about it. What kind of god is that? Maybe only a delusion?

Maybe God inspires humans with the compassion and courage to step in when other humans do that, or maybe we just evolved such compassion along with some of us having evolved a genetic predisposition to believe in God.

Either way I note you haven’t faulted my logic, only said where you think it leads

 

[Trailblazer]

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

As a Baha'i, I do not believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet. I believe that Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last prophet in the Adamic Cycle which began with Adam, and thus He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. I believe that the Bab ushered in a new Cycle of religion in 1844, called the Age of Fulfillment, and then nine years later Baha'u'llah received His revelation from God. The Baha'i Faith is based upon the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and it is considered an Abrahamic religion since it emerged out of Islam.

I do not believe that God or the Messengers are responsible for how humans messed up the revealed religions so I do not believe that is an argument against God using Messengers. Can you think of a better way for God to communicate to humanity?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

I believe that there are a lot of false assumptions being made here.

First - that God only sent prophets to Israel.

Second - that God stopped sending prophets.

Third - that God cannot use the internet and Facebook.

 

[PearlSeeker]

How does that require interference from the Creator? Especially when that Creator 'wrote the program' that allows/calls for our further development.

Yes, he gave us reason and intuition. This way we have natural theology. But is it only on us to know him? I think in this further development God want us to grow in knowing him more intimately. Not like we know objects but like we know a person. This requires a dialogue and devotion.

 

[PearlSeeker]

But is co-operation with God required or co-operation with the middleman required? That is the question being posed here.

It also requires cooperation between all of us. If no one shared knowledge and experiences where would we be today?

 

[PearlSeeker]

He has the power to force us humans to do His will just like matter

I don't think so. Even God can't force someone to love. Free will is essential.