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Argument for allowing early Abortion

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Another reason it doesn't hurt to have a limit.

Actually, precisely why it does hurt to have a limit.

Doctors *should* have the option of terminating a pregnancy if it is to save the life of the woman. the *preference* should be for delivery *if* that is possible. But there are cases where it is not possible.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
There is no other person. You are the only match. There is no time to find another. You are the dude's last hope.
Why is one murder while the other is not?
In both cases refusal to use ones body results in death.
One is deliberate premeditated taking of life - murder.
The other does not involve murder at all. Nor taking life, in any form or fashion... Wait! You don't think that all nations are guilty of murder because they don't take their money and feed all the poor children in Africa. Do you think that?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What opinion piece article is that? This? You are saying that is not true science?

That is precisely what he is saying: that the article is NOT a scientific article: it is an opinion piece.

Huh? Are you referring to something I said, or is this a trick question?

It is trying to get you to think about what you have said by looking at the logical conflicts.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Actually, precisely why it does hurt to have a limit.

Doctors *should* have the option of terminating a pregnancy if it is to save the life of the woman. the *preference* should be for delivery *if* that is possible. But there are cases where it is not possible.
Maybe you lost track, but we are discussing this:
the woman should have the right to require the fetus be removed from her body.
I.e. the time limit for elective abortions. There should be no limit for medical reasons.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
One is deliberate premeditated taking of life - murder.

Which one?
In both cases the decision is made with known results.

Although in neither case does it involve the taking of life.
It just involves refusal to use ones body parts. In both cases that decision results in death.

You seem to be going out of your way to avoid the obvious.

The other does not involve murder at all.


Neither does.

Wait! You don't think that all nations are guilty of murder because they don't take their money and feed all the poor children in Africa. Do you think that?

I don't. Not that it is relevant since the topic is making your body parts available to help a third party survive.
Money isn't a body part.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Which one?.
Don't play ignorant. You know quite well which one.

In both cases the decision is made with known results.

Although in neither case does it involve the taking of life.
It just involves refusal to use ones body parts. In both cases that decision results in death.

You seem to be going out of your way to avoid the obvious.
.
So the third party is now a body part? Make up your mind. Which is it?
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't play ignorant. You know quite well which one.

In both cases the decision is made with known results.


So the third party is now a body part? Make up your mind. Which is it?


No. Please pay attention.

First scenario: A woman is pregnant and wants to refuse the fetus permission to use her uterus.

Second scenario: A man needs your kidney to survive and you want to deny him the use of that kidney. You are the only person who is compatible for a kidney.

In both circumstances, the denial will result in a death. Do you have the right to refuse the use of your kidney? Does the woman have the right to refuse the use of her uterus?

If you want, also add that the man who needs your kidney is currently hooked up to your body and is using your kidney. Do you have the right to require him to disconnect from you even if it kills him?

The 'third party' is the man who wants to use your kidney. He will die if you separate him. Is it murder if you refuse?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No. Please pay attention.

First scenario: A woman is pregnant and wants to refuse the fetus permission to use her uterus.

Second scenario: A man needs your kidney to survive and you want to deny him the use of that kidney. You are the only person who is compatible for a kidney.

In both circumstances, the denial will result in a death. Do you have the right to refuse the use of your kidney? Does the woman have the right to refuse the use of her uterus?

If you want, also add that the man who needs your kidney is currently hooked up to your body and is using your kidney. Do you have the right to require him to disconnect from you even if it kills him?

The 'third party' is the man who wants to use your kidney. He will die if you separate him. Is it murder if you refuse?
Ah. Clarity. Thanks.
So you are saying that a woman is sacrificing her uterus, in the same way a person would sacrifice a kidney. Yes?
What madness am I hearing???

I have kidneys that I need. Giving up one makes my life complicated, as I need both for proper regulation of my bodily system. To give up one is a permanent loss, and you are comparing this to a uterus - a woman's body part, designed for the purpose of "housing" offspring till they are ready to come into the world!

Seriously! Are you guys serious!?
No. The one who does not give up his kidney does not commit murder. On the other hand, the one who just wants to get rid of... what were your words again... "someone living inside them whom they can demand to leave", is a vicious, selfish, murderer... imo.

If in your scenario, she loses a part that was necessary, I would understand. Otherwise, I consider your scenario some sort of sick joke.
So what part does she lose?

PS
I want to express sympathy for those women who abort their offspring out of ignorance, confusion, and irrational thinking.
I understand that such things do happen, and as imperfect beings, we do not always do the right thing.
My posts do not apply to them.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah. Clarity. Thanks.
So you are saying that a woman is sacrificing her uterus, in the same way a person would sacrifice a kidney. Yes?

No, I am simply saying she does not want to let someone else use her uterus.

What madness am I hearing???

I have kidneys that I need. Giving up one makes my life complicated, as I need both for proper regulation of my bodily system. To give up one is a permanent loss, and you are comparing this to a uterus - a woman's body part, designed for the purpose of "housing" offspring till they are ready to come into the world!

And in the scenario I gave, it is NOT a permanent loss of the kidney either. Suppose that the man wants use of your kidney while it is attached to your body. He is connected to you and using it now.

Do you have the right to request him to stop using your organ?

Seriously! Are you guys serious!?
No. The one who does not give up his kidney does not commit murder. On the other hand, the one who just wants to get rid of... what were your words again... "someone living inside them whom they can demand to leave", is a vicious, selfish, murderer... imo.

If you disconnect the man from your body, it will kill him. he just wants to use your kidney for a while. He will die if you refuse.

Do you have the right to refuse? Do you have the right to separate him from your kidney?

If in your scenario, she loses a part that was necessary, I would understand. Otherwise, I consider your scenario some sort of sick joke.
So what part does she lose?

Her losing something isn't relevant. She is tired of letting someone else use it and wants it left alone. She wants her body back.

Just like with the kidney. You can keep the man attached to your body and he will live. If you separate him, he will die.

Do you have the right to separate him? I would say yes, absolutely.

PS
I want to express sympathy for those women who abort their offspring out of ignorance, confusion, and irrational thinking.
I understand that such things do happen, and as imperfect beings, we do not always do the right thing.
My posts do not apply to them.

Yes, some people make mistakes. And sometimes, those that chose to go to term lost their lives because of their choice. That was also a mistake.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What opinion piece article is that? This? You are saying that is not true science?


Huh? Are you referring to something I said, or is this a trick question?
No. It's not true science. It's an unpeer reviewed opinion piece that is not published in a scientific journaljournal and has no science component to it.

American College of Pediatricians - Wikipedia

The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative advocacy group of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States.[1] The group was founded in 2002. In 2005, it reportedly had between 150 and 200 members and one employee; in 2016, it reportedly had 500 physician members.[2][3] The group's primary focus is advocating against abortion and the adoption of children by gay or lesbian people. It also advocates conversion therapy.[4][5]

The problem here is you are talking to a scientist. An advocacy group trying to sound scientific with a professional sounding name and promoting pseudoscience in its website will not work on me.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Huh? Are you referring to something I said, or is this a trick question?

Did you not write this in response to my statement that having life is not sufficient to give organisms rights, otherwise cockroaches will have rights?

A cockroach does have rights, according to the animal rights supporters.
Doesn't criminals and murderers have rights... or can you just out their lights as you wish?
No you can't. They too have ights according to the State.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No. It's not true science. It's an unpeer reviewed opinion piece that is not published in a scientific journaljournal and has no science component to it.

American College of Pediatricians - Wikipedia

The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative advocacy group of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States.[1] The group was founded in 2002. In 2005, it reportedly had between 150 and 200 members and one employee; in 2016, it reportedly had 500 physician members.[2][3] The group's primary focus is advocating against abortion and the adoption of children by gay or lesbian people. It also advocates conversion therapy.[4][5]

The problem here is you are talking to a scientist. An advocacy group trying to sound scientific with a professional sounding name and promoting pseudoscience in its website will not work on me.
Wow! I did not realize how far out there that they are, I do not like it all when non-science groups pretend to be one. I hope that they are not as bad as creationists. They have gone so far as to create their own fake "peer review". Do they have the equivalent of that for their pro-life stance?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wow! Yes they are. Okay, you win. I am surprised since that is worse than what creationist sites do.

On a related note, I saw that that group tried to tie in pedophilia and homosexuality. I was discussing the pedophilia of the Catholic Church with another poster who said that they no longer allowed gay priests and that had cured their pedophilia problem. He never supported his claim. So eventually I checked and found out that the Catholic Church had bought that lie. I found an article that confirmed that. It also said that the Catholic Church's own study that they ran to prevent hiring child predators again specifically said that there was no tie between homosexuality and pedophilia.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Don't play ignorant. You know quite well which one.

Explain it.

So the third party is now a body part? Make up your mind. Which is it?

:rolleyes:

It's quite laughable how you now pretend to not even understand the scenario, all just to avoid the obvious.

A person requires another person's body parts to survive.
In situation A, a grown man requires your kidneys.
In situation B, a fetus requires your uterus.

In both cases, refusing to make your body parts available results in the death of the person that requires the use of you body parts.

Derp di derp derp.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ah. Clarity. Thanks.

As if it wasn't clear the first time around.... :rolleyes:

So you are saying that a woman is sacrificing her uterus, in the same way a person would sacrifice a kidney. Yes?

Nobody used the word "sacrifice". The word being used is "using".

I have kidneys that I need. Giving up one makes my life complicated, as I need both for proper regulation of my bodily system. To give up one is a permanent loss, and you are comparing this to a uterus - a woman's body part, designed for the purpose of "housing" offspring till they are ready to come into the world!

Pregnancy is no joke. It comes with lots and all kinds of risks. It also comes with potentially permanent changes. My wife had 2 kids. Her body permanently changed because of it, particularly in the pelvic area. She also struggles with weight.

There are LOADS of potential permanent effects of carrying through a pregnancy. Elevated risk on diabetes, hair loss, tooth loss, skin changes, breast changes, bladder problems, chronic hemorrhoids, changes in hormone balance (with its own consequences), etc etc etc etc etc.

You were not aware of this?

Seriously! Are you guys serious!?
No. The one who does not give up his kidney does not commit murder.

But the one who does not give her uterus does?
Why?

You keep claiming "na-huh!!!!" but you never explain how or why.


On the other hand, the one who just wants to get rid of... what were your words again... "someone living inside them whom they can demand to leave", is a vicious, selfish, murderer... imo.

Why?
We already now that you believe this since you keep claiming it.
Yet you never explain why nor have you even begun to address how it's different from not making your body available for blood transfusions or kidney use or kidney transplant or anything of the sort.

If in your scenario, she loses a part that was necessary, I would understand. Otherwise, I consider your scenario some sort of sick joke.
So what part does she lose?

See above. Pregnancy is no joke and has permanent, lasting effects and all kinds of risks involved. Likely even more then having a kidney removed.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No, I am simply saying she does not want to let someone else use her uterus.
Are you saying she was forced to allow someone else to use her body?

And in the scenario I gave, it is NOT a permanent loss of the kidney either. Suppose that the man wants use of your kidney while it is attached to your body. He is connected to you and using it now.

Do you have the right to request him to stop using your organ?
The man asked.
If I say no, I have that right.
Just as I have the right to refuse a begger money, or refuse to donate money to help people in poverty.
If the man is already connected to my body, it's either that I allowed him, or someone connected him without my knowledge.
If I allowed him, then according to my Bible trained conscience, I should let my yes mean yes.
(Psalm 15:4) . . .He has sworn to what is bad [for himself], and yet he does not alter.

If he forced himself on me without my permission, he has commited a criminal act, and the consequences are not on anyone but him. Removing myself would only be allowing the already existing circumstances to take their course.
Criminal or not, he died as a result of his current circumstances.

If the doctors were the ones that forced him upon me, without either of our knowledge, the same applies.
I did not cause his death, nor kill him. It is his present circumstances that resulted in his death.

I am not responsible for the death of someone who was hit by a car, and died on my pavement, because I did not go out and try to give him CPR, but instead called Emergency.
If I drove the car that plowed into him, then, yes, I am responsible for his death.

Because I do not donate money to help feed impoverished children, in developing countries, does not mean that I murdered those who died.

If you disconnect the man from your body, it will kill him. he just wants to use your kidney for a while. He will die if you refuse.
So. I did not kill him, murder him, nor am I responsible for his death.
People have kidney damage for numerous reasons. I am not to blame for their disease.
Hundreds of people in Africa, Haiti, and other parts of the world want food.

Do you have the right to refuse? Do you have the right to separate him from your kidney?
Yes.

Her losing something isn't relevant. She is tired of letting someone else use it and wants it left alone. She wants her body back.
Tired? She doesn't have her body?
Being tired gives one the right to murder? Well why don't I just go murder my neighbor, becase I am tired of their loud music disturbing my peaceful evenings.
The offspring in her womb is not dying, and does not own her body. She still has her body, that's why they protest. "It's my body, and I can do whatever I want with my body."

What good reason does she have for murdering the offspring, again? Selfishness is not a good reason.

Just like with the kidney. You can keep the man attached to your body and he will live. If you separate him, he will die.

Do you have the right to separate him? I would say yes, absolutely.
You asked that already.
I agree - I have the right to refuse... Absolutely. That's diferent to deliberately murdering someone who isn't nearly dead.
I don't want to be kept on life support. Those who remove me from that support, has not murdered, or killed me. I died naturally. The fetus does not die naturally. It is murdered... in a cruel way... for selfish reasons.

The one who popped the pill, or ripped that life to shreds, is responsible for the death, just like the driver that plowed into the individual.

Yes, some people make mistakes. And sometimes, those that chose to go to term lost their lives because of their choice. That was also a mistake.
"those that chose to go to term lost their lives because of their choice."?
What does that mean?

@TagliatelliMonster since according to you, I am dishonest, and always pretending, you don't want to talk to me.
 
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