Argument for allowing early Abortion

[sayak83]

Isn't that what I am saying... Therefore man's opinions should never be exerted upon anyone as truth... especially in such a serious matter involving life.
That rests only with the originator of moral law.
Do you disagree? Who would be the originator of moral law?

Would you care to mention the reason why you didn't respond to my comments to your OP?

There is no originator of the moral law or mathematical law or logical law. Abstract structures are eternal and non-contingent entities. Uncreated.

 

[sayak83]

I argue that people with opinions about what constitute life, do not have the right to exert their opinions on such a serious matter.
Since they cannot demonstrate with sufficient certainly that life has not begun from the time a cell starts to divide, they should leave that decision alone, and allow "natural processes" to take their course.

An animal tries to impregnate its mate, for the purpose of carrying on its lineage.
That's the purpose of sex - procreation.

Birds do not build their nest for nothing.
Humans' promiscuous and selfish behavior should not be an excuse to have the right to be supported by people with opinions.

Would your argument change, if it was found that the fetus is conscious prior to 20 weeks... 10 weeks... 5?
Current neuroscientific evidence indicates the possibility of fetal pain perception during the first trimester

I doubt very much that would change the view of people interested in supporting their view based on personal feelings.

You really quoted to me a Catholic medical journal did you?
Here is the scientific concensus on fetal pain... not before 25 weeks.

Fetal Pain.

 

[sayak83]

What about telling you you can't believe in God, or you have to believe in God, or that you have to be a Catholic, or that you have to be a Muslim? Do you consider that a violation of yourself?

You see? I'm talking about your interior being, and your blood, your organs, your sexual organs, your thoughts, your beliefs, etc., are not, or should not be the property of the government. If it is, you have no freedom. You are a slave. It would be to put a fine point on it, a form of rape.

You should not pay tax then. The govt is taking 1/4 th to 1/2 of your efforts and labour and time of your life that you have spent to get that money!! It's slavery!

For all your examples you have not provided an argument that
1) the cost to me is moderately small and reversible
2) The effect is the near certain saving of a human life
3) I am the only individual who can do this in the population.

If you do not read the actual argument and give examples with no similarity then how are you arguing rationally!

 

[We Never Know]

You really quoted to me a Catholic medical journal did you?
Here is the scientific concensus on fetal pain... not before 25 weeks.

Fetal Pain.

That's bogus in my opinion. We as adults can have pain that they don't know about/ can give reason for or treat. Not to mention we know pretty much little about our brain.

We don't have a clue what a fetus can or cannot feel. Its all guesses.

 

[sayak83]

That's bogus in my opinion. We as adults can have pain that they don't know about/ can give reason for or treat. Not to mention we know pretty much little about our brain.

We don't have a clue what a fetus can or cannot feel. Its all guesses.

Pain is the most well studied parts of the brain due to century long research on anasthesia and pain mitigation.
Your less than rational opinion on the consensus of thousands of medical science professionals does not really have weight.

 

[We Never Know]

Pain is the most well studied parts of the brain due to century long research on anasthesia and pain mitigation.
Your less than rational opinion on the consensus of thousands of medical science professionals does not really have weight.

Lol. Most people that file for disability file on their back and knees because its least understood. Go read a book and study.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lol. Most people that file for disability file on their back and knees because its least understood. Go read a book and study.

You should try to support your claim. He did support his.

 

[sayak83]

Lol. Most people that file for disability file on their back and knees because its least understood. Go read a book and study.

I see that you have no actual reasons to give. Ok then

 

[We Never Know]

I see that you have no actual reasons to give. Ok then

Lol. That would be you with no response.
Fibromyalgia is a good example. Its not brain scans, its about how they feel. But you do you.

 

[We Never Know]

You should try to support your claim. He did support his.

Ok @Subduction Zone .

Show me their support in their post. All I see is opinion. No links, no studies.

"Pain is the most well studied parts of the brain due to century long research on anasthesia and pain mitigation.
Your less than rational opinion on the consensus of thousands of medical science professionals does not really have weight."

 

[We Never Know]

You should try to support your claim. He did support his.

But just for fun. No brain scan needed.

"What Back Conditions Qualify for Disability? The spine disorders that qualify for disability include herniated discs, nerve root compression, degenerative disc disease. To get disability with back pack, you must meet one of the back conditions in the SSA's list of impairments that qualify for disability."

Back Conditions That Qualify For Disability (Updated 2022)


People with more long-term knee problems, a disability award is possible.

Social Security Disability Benefits and Knee Problems

 

[Subduction Zone]

But just for fun. No brain scan needed.

"What Back Conditions Qualify for Disability? The spine disorders that qualify for disability include herniated discs, nerve root compression, degenerative disc disease. To get disability with back pack, you must meet one of the back conditions in the SSA's list of impairments that qualify for disability."

Back Conditions That Qualify For Disability (Updated 2022)


People with more long-term knee problems, a disability award is possible.

Social Security Disability Benefits and Knee Problems

Sorry, but those are not peer reviewed articles about pain. They are only about social security benefits. Go to the experts in the field if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[We Never Know]

Sorry, but those are not peer reviewed articles about pain. They are only about social security benefits. Go to the experts in the field if you want to be taken seriously.

Post me some peer reviewed links. Peer review is a much BS a viable.
I don't know why you think.peer review is infallible, fact or perfect.
I think that is the athiest in your being not much of religious is peer reviewed so you think its a go to. Even science peer review isn't always correct. Majority doesn't mean right.

 

[sayak83]

Lol. That would be you with no response.
Fibromyalgia is a good example. Its not brain scans, its about how they feel. But you do you.

I have no idea how Fibromyalgia is relevant. Please enlighten me. On the first glance it appears that neural pathways for pain get altered for this conditions (as seen from brain scans) so that normal sensations are interpreted by the brain cortex as pain.
Fibromyalgia: a disorder of the brain? - PubMed
Of course, for a fetus, these pathways do not exist at all till 25 weeks. So no question of a pain experience.

 

[Polymath257]

What is the ground for this statement?

Wouldn't this be contrary to your position on abortion though?

No. Someone being *actually inside of me* would allow me to require that they leave.

Now, if there are higher brain functions, there can be a requirement that I have them leave in a way that preserves their life, if possible. But I have the right to demand that they leave, even if they do not survive.

 

[Polymath257]

I accept that there is a sliding scale. But apparently you are saying there exists no moral obligation even at the far end of the scale where you suffer very little inconvenience for saving a life. Why do you believe this?

Again, it depends on how 'little' that inconvenience is.

Does it put my own life at risk? My health? my sanity? Then there is no obligation. That covers abortion nicely.

Do I have the skills to actually help? Can I find people that do? Maybe all I can do is offer comfort.

How invasive is the help? Do I have to give blood immediately? a kidney? if so, no obligation.

Again, there is a huge difference between an obligation and something that is just a good thing to do and maybe even something expected of a decent human being.

let's also face it, if you take on the project of helping all those that nobody else is helping, you will be doing nothing else. Which, if that is your decision in life, is a good thing. But it is not an obligation.

 

[Polymath257]

There is no originator of the moral law or mathematical law or logical law. Abstract structures are eternal and non-contingent entities. Uncreated.

I disagree. Abstract entities are conventional and invented by intelligent beings.

We invent math, logic, and morality.

 

[Koldo]

No. Someone being *actually inside of me* would allow me to require that they leave.

Now, if there are higher brain functions, there can be a requirement that I have them leave in a way that preserves their life, if possible. But I have the right to demand that they leave, even if they do not survive.

Doesn't this contradict what you just said about not knowingly directly harming someone though?

 

[Koldo]

Post me some peer reviewed links. Peer review is a much BS a viable.
I don't know why you think.peer review is infallible, fact or perfect.
I think that is the athiest in your being not much of religious is peer reviewed so you think its a go to. Even science peer review isn't always correct. Majority doesn't mean right.

I have no idea how Fibromyalgia is relevant. Please enlighten me. On the first glance it appears that neural pathways for pain get altered for this conditions (as seen from brain scans) so that normal sensations are interpreted by the brain cortex as pain.
Fibromyalgia: a disorder of the brain? - PubMed
Of course, for a fetus, these pathways do not exist at all till 25 weeks. So no question of a pain experience.

Does it even matter if the fetus is able to feel pain though?

I mean, surely if it does and if we think it is alright to kill it we should seek the least painful way, but that doesn't address the main point: whether it is alright to kill it in the first place.

Think of it this way: Imagine I am unable to feel pain. You all certainly don't think it would be alright to kill me, right?

Perhaps the debate is about whether pain points towards consciousness? Well... Cattle feels pain and it is conscious, still...

 

[Polymath257]

Doesn't this contradict what you just said about not knowingly directly harming someone though?

And, again, that only applies in circumstances where I and those I care about are not at risk.

And once again, I have the right to insist that a person that inhabits my body leave. Even if that means the other person dies.