Argument for God(s) Second Edition - please critique

[atanu]

Correct definitions:-
consciousness refers to the awake state (vs. dreamless sleep or coma) and also to subjective perceptual awareness, which can shift, change, and move around, e.g. modulated by attention or in "altered states of consciousness".

The mind, which is a cultural term that is debated in philosophy and used in clinical psychology, generally refers to consciousness plus autobiographical memory,personal identity, sense of personal agency (voluntary control over actions),accurate introspection, and ability to control one's thoughts.

That is precisely the problem. As if in dream there is no consciousness. As if in sleep we lose connection with our identity.

 

[atanu]

Anxiety is a physical state that creates harmful hormones and chemicals as well as increase "fight and flight" responses that are harmful to the body. A placebo reduces anxiety as the brain falsely believes that the emergency (due to sickness) is over and hence scales back on its "emergency alert" state. This improves the bodily health as it moves out of the "fight and flight" systems and associated stress hormones.

Fun fact. The brain is in charge of almost all bodily states. It calculates how much hormone to secrete and when, how fast the heart must pump, how many times the lungs must inflate and deflate, when to secrete digestive juices etc. etc. etc.

Why should there be anxiety in the first place? What it is like being anxious as a first person? Why should brain generated intelligence be anxious, if there is no person?

Your whole exercise here shows how intentions can alter physical states. Meditation, bio-feedback, hypnotism, Yoga Nidra etc. all point to the fact that we have to just give up the idea of being created puppets and take charge. Until organic changes have set in, it is possible to recoup. Without using any placebo, many, including this fellow, can alter brain states, reduce pulse and blood pressure, alter body temperature etc etc. There are published scientific studies.

No one is saying that the so-called physical does not affect the mind. Ayurveda is built on the concept that food makes the mind. However, consciousness and mind are not synonymous terms for Hindus. Mind is manifested identity and thoughts thereupon. Consciousness is the power of cognition. We can watch our thoughts, our mind -- and this is called Mindfulness, btw.

However, pure dualism and pure material monism both fail, since in both there is no way to reconcile the material and the immaterial. In non dualism, on the other hand, it is held that the material and the non material are both mental artefacts. What enables this creation of duality is our power of awareness, which we are.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So you can just throw out any unsupported nonsense and state that it's a valid refutation? That, again, is not how philosophy works.

If you're arguing for conclusion X, but X is incompatible with Y, then merely pointing out that Y may or may not be true is enough to call your conclusion X into question.

If X was actually demonstrated, then it would be demonstrated that Y is false. If your argument works, then it would necessarily imply that every possible fact that contradicts your argument is false. If the falsehood of any of those facts is questionable, then so is your conclusion.

If someone "just throws out unsupported nonsense", then it should be very easy for you to refute. This doesn't relieve you from the burden of having to refute it.

 

[serp777]

This was original presented as a 4 premise argument entitled the Argument for Set. I think you'll find this version much more flushed out.

1. The external universe (EU) is made of physical material and bound by physical laws.

2. The internal universe (IU), such as the mind, imagination, abstract thought, etc, is not made of physical matter and not bound to by physical laws of the EU.

3. So, the properties of the EU and IU must be different.

4. As the properties of the EU and IU are different, one cannot be reduced into the other.

5. Due to #4, the EU and IU must be separate things not reliant on each other.

6. Based on #1-5, the IU must be explained by something immaterial and not bound by physical laws. Further, there must be a logical explanation as to how the EU and IU became mixed as seen in human beings.

7. The EU shows no sign of conscious thought, as it is eternally bound to its laws.

8. Because of #3-6, the IU cannot rise within the EU, it does not arise by chance.

9. #8 implies that the mixing of IU and EU was intentionally caused by something (as per #6) immaterial and not bound to physical laws.

10. A conscious thing that willfully interacts with the material world to create humanity as we know it, which is immaterial and not bound to physical laws, is a very common description of gods from every single tradition.

Therefore, what people call god(s) must exist to explain the mixing of EU and IU, as neither can arise from the other and are separate substances.

Below is the original argument.

1. Something that can go against the mechanistic flow of nature is unnatural.

2. The human mind can – to varying degrees – go against the mechanistic flow of nature.

3. So, the human mind – even if just an aspect of it – must be unnatural.

4. For nature to create something unnatural would be a logical contradiction.

Therefore, the must be something separate from nature to explain the human mind.

Problem with assumption one--

"1. The external universe (EU) is made of physical material and bound by physical laws."

Where is the proof that this is true. What is the definition of the external universe? Why would the external universe necessarily have to exist?

 

[McBell]

Yes. But mind starts with subject-object division of one consciousness that happens during sleep to dream transition.

You are speaking only from POV of waking state consciousness, which was not there before birth, which will not be there after death, and which does not persist in dream and sleep forms of consciousnesses. But we somehow consider waking state representational forms as absolute truths.

When one intuits that what one sees is only one's mind, which has three forms, similar to three forms of water, one stops imagining the waking state forms as immutable truths.

I am expecting some harsh response of course.

And you STILL have not separated the mind from the brain....

 

[atanu]

And you STILL have not separated the mind from the brain....

Why do I need to when both are artefacts/products of consciousness?

 

[McBell]

Why do I need to when both are artefacts/products of consciousness?

 

[1137]

Problem with assumption one--

"1. The external universe (EU) is made of physical material and bound by physical laws."

Where is the proof that this is true. What is the definition of the external universe? Why would the external universe necessarily have to exist?

A very good point. Over the past few days I've realized how unstable premise 1 is.

 

[sayak83]

Why should there be anxiety in the first place? What it is like being anxious as a first person? Why should brain generated intelligence be anxious, if there is no person?

Animals show anxiousness as well. Its a state of body and the brain that is geared towards rapid reaction to sudden appearance of danger . Sighting of a predator causing the brain to enter into this "emergency response mode" precisely because life is on the line and short term survival overrides all long term plans.

Your whole exercise here shows how intentions can alter physical states. Meditation, bio-feedback, hypnotism, Yoga Nidra etc. all point to the fact that we have to just give up the idea of being created puppets and take charge. Until organic changes have set in, it is possible to recoup. Without using any placebo, many, including this fellow, can alter brain states, reduce pulse and blood pressure, alter body temperature etc etc. There are published scientific studies.

Of course. The difference is intentions and beliefs are also physical states of the brain and are NOT immaterial. Mind and all its states are physical, identical to certain classes of brain states. Thus a meditative state is also a brain state and will have causal impact, obviously. Meditation is like the brain going to the gym, it performs better after that. The entire slew of research on the benefits of meditation is easily explainable in the framework of materialism. So is the entire Buddhist theory of the mind and consciousness (apart from rebirth).

 

[1137]

Of course. The difference is intentions and beliefs are also physical states of the brain and are NOT immaterial. Mind and all its states are physical, identical to certain classes of brain states. Thus a meditative state is also a brain state and will have causal impact, obviously. Meditation is like the brain going to the gym, it performs better after that. The entire slew of research on the benefits of meditation is easily explainable in the framework of materialism. So is the entire Buddhist theory of the mind and consciousness (apart from rebirth).

Claim after claim after claim without any support or evidence. Classic materialism it seems

 

[viole]

Firing neurons is categorically different than emotions.

Ingest 20 vodka shots that affect that firing, and tell me what is left of your emotions.

Ciao

- viole

 

[sayak83]

Claim after claim after claim without any support or evidence. Classic materialism it seems

Oh I can provide supporting evidence. Now that I have established the logic for stating that certain correlated brain states are mental states, I will go on and provide the brain states correlated with mindful states of consciousness that are found to be extremely efficacious in reducing stress, pain and anxiety.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151110171600.htm

The mindfulness meditation group reported that pain intensity was reduced by 27 percent and by 44 percent for the emotional aspect of pain. In contrast, the placebo cream reduced the sensation of pain by 11 percent and emotional aspect of pain by 13 percent.

"The MRI scans showed for the first time that mindfulness meditation produced patterns of brain activity that are different than those produced by the placebo cream," Zeidan said.

Mindfulness meditation reduced pain by activating brain regions (orbitofrontal and anterior cingulate cortex) associated with the self-control of pain while the placebo cream lowered pain by reducing brain activity in pain-processing areas (secondary somatosensory cortex).

Another brain region, the thalamus, was deactivated during mindfulness meditation, but was activated during all other conditions. This brain region serves as a gateway that determines if sensory information is allowed to reach higher brain centers. By deactivating this area, mindfulness meditation may have caused signals about pain to simply fade away, Zeidan said.

Two birds in one. A study showing what brain states cause the pain to feel less both for placebo and for mindfulness, though the effect is far more in case of mindfulness.

Both your argument about placebo and the radio has been refuted now.

 

[1137]

Ingest 20 vodka shots that affect that firing, and tell me what is left of your emotions.

Ciao

- viole

Can you quote me saying the brain cannot effect the mind?

 

[1137]

Oh I can provide supporting evidence. Now that I have established the logic for stating that certain correlated brain states are mental states, I will go on and provide the brain states correlated with mindful states of consciousness that are found to be extremely efficacious in reducing stress, pain and anxiety.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151110171600.htm




Two birds in one. A study showing what brain states cause the pain to feel less both for placebo and for mindfulness, though the effect is far more in case of mindfulness.

Both your argument about placebo and the radio has been refuted now.

Yay, more correlation = causation. I noticed you ignored my thorough refutation of this in the other thread. Very telling.

 

[sayak83]

Yay, more correlation = causation. I noticed you ignored my thorough refutation of this in the other thread. Very telling.

Actually I didn't. You made the very absurd claim that whenever the radio is on at a channel frequency, it will broadcast the channel, which is obviously untrue..eg, when the car is out of range.

I notice your penchant for rolling your eyes and fervently repeat correlation is not causation whenever you hear evidence that goes against your presuppositions. Telling, that.

 

[viole]

Can you quote me saying the brain cannot effect the mind?

So, can firing neurons affect emotions?

Ciao

- viole

 

[1137]

Actually I didn't. You made the very absurd claim that whenever the radio is on at a channel frequency, it will broadcast the channel, which is obviously untrue..eg, when the car is out of range.

I notice your penchant for rolling your eyes and fervently repeat correlation is not causation whenever you hear evidence that goes against your presuppositions. Telling, that.

Must be invisible. Can to please go to that thread and quote your imaginary response to post #58?

 

[1137]

So, can firing neurons affect emotions?

Ciao

- viole

Of course. Perhaps you've heard of antidepressants?

 

[viole]

Of course. Perhaps you've heard of antidepressants?

Yes, I have heard of Alzheimer, too. i also heard of amnesia and total anesthesia.

What happened to those emotions? Last time I got anesthesia, they seem to have vanished.

Ciao

- viole

 

[sayak83]

Must be invisible. Can to please go to that thread and quote your imaginary response to post #58?

Missed it. Done.