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Argument from Consistency Contra Same-Sex Marriage

Wow. You like to completely miss the point, don't you? I never talked about fairness; I talked about harm.

The purpose of any law - including laws regarding marriage - is the protection and benefit of society and the people in it. Knowingly, avoidably hurting people during some of the greatest crises of their lives is not the same as not being able to use a particular washroom.

lol Once again. Even buying into the "hurt" nonsense, you can't "hurt" anyone by denying them access from something that doesn't exist. Just think about it: is your case for same-sex marriage really that we should, like, you know, like not hurt anyone's feelings, you know, man?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Lol did you read my post at all? All things being equal, we absolutely should not allow and certainly not "encourage" adoption by same-sex couples.




You don't see even one? How about that such a child be deprived of a mother or father?

Ay, ay, ay, George. We cannot intelligibly speak of which type of couple should be able to adopt or which one would be "better" if we don't speak with an assumption of balance, for doing so just lends itself to the producing forth of point-missing "well, shouldn't a same-sex couple be able to adopt if the alternative was that the child be raised by drug addicts?" nonsense.


Failed to give evidence of why? George, the answer is straightforward: decades of published research in psychology, social science, and medicine demonstrate that children do best when raised by a mother and father (especially the biological parents) in a long-term marriage (again, much of this research is referenced in David Popenoe, Life Without Father, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1996). That’s because a mother and a father each provide a unique and important contribution to their role as parents. Children who are raised – for example – in fatherless families suffer, on average, in every measure of well-being. They have higher levels of physical and mental illness, educational difficulties, poverty, substance abuse, criminal behavior, loneliness, and physical and sexual abuse (see Yale Medical School’s Dr. Kyle Pruett, Fatherneed: Why Father Care Is as Essential as Mother Care for Your Child (New York: Free Press, 2000), 17-34.).

Homosexual adoption, by design, will deny a child either a mother or father every time. By legalizing same-sex parenting, society declares by law that mothers and fathers are interchangeable. That means a mother offers no unique contribution to a child. A man could provide all the benefits of a woman.

Great- simply tell me what it is that a fatherless child lacks that lead to these outcomes.

Again- you misinterpret correlation with causation. Consider newer research:

How Does the Gender of Parents Matter? - Biblarz - 2010 - Journal of Marriage and Family - Wiley Online Library
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
lol Once again. Even buying into the "hurt" nonsense, you can't "hurt" anyone by denying them access from something that doesn't exist.

Of course you can. If a mother denies her love to her children, they will suffer.

Even if this love does not exist.

Actually, the children would suffer immensily from the inexistence of is love.

You are the one with the burden of proof on your court here.

You have presented no argument for why it would be wrong to accept homosexual marriage.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
lol Once again. Even buying into the "hurt" nonsense, you can't "hurt" anyone by denying them access from something that doesn't exist. Just think about it: is your case for same-sex marriage really that we should, like, you know, like not hurt anyone's feelings, you know, man?
No, that's not my case. It seems you're having trouble understanding my posts. When this happens, it would save us all a lot of time if you ask questions about the things you're not clear on instead of running off half-cocked, giving responses to arguments I never made.

And I asked you earlier: exactly what is it that you think doesn't exist?
 
Do you think this was an answer to my question?

So far, you've been exceedingly bad at guessing the intent and motives behind my posts. You'll save yourself embarrassment (some of it, anyhow) if you just respond to what I actually write.

Third time: How much consideration do you think an argument against interracial marriage would warrant?

Edit: if you don't want to answer, just say so.

Think of how silly the question you are asking is. You are asking me to judge an argument that has not been stated. That's like asking you:

"Hey man, like, say I had an argument against the Mormon concept of God. Like, what would you think of it?"

The answer, of course, would be that you don't know what to think of such argument because you have no idea what the argument is like; that you do not have enough information to judge such an argument! If such an argument is sound, then of course one ought to give it great consideration, but if it is false, then it should be given much less consideration. Do you get it now?
 
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Unless you actually think your points are logical.

In my experience, most people on the internet that readily make the type of claim that "your points are, like, not logical man lol" have no idea what logic is or what an argument being "valid" even means in the first place.

Care to give it a shot to show me that you do know what "logic" and what an argument being valid means without looking it up on Google?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Sovereign: In case you missed it. These are the reasons for marriage. They apply to both same-sex and heterosexual marriage. Thus, there is reasoning. Now the burden is on you to show why such rights should be denied. Otherwise you run into equal protection and due process problems. Essentially- every anti-same sex marriage argument fails.

I am glad you took the time to write this. The reason for marriage is certainly important. The reason for state recognized marriage is also important. However, the problem is that those reasons exist for same-sex marriage as well. Let us go through the list:

Support of the children: Yes
Encourages stability: yes
Encourage companionship: Yes
Encourage Happiness: Yes
Encourage Intimacy: Yes
Encourages security: Yes
Encourages expression: yes
Encourages fidelity: Yes


Literally every reason that exists to encourage marriage also exists to encourage same sex marriage. I know your really really really want to think that you have found good reason to deny same sex marriage. But, you have not. You are using recycled arguments and poor logic. So with all of these reasons to encourage same sex marriage, why should we not?
 
I am glad you took the time to write this. The reason for marriage is certainly important. The reason for state recognized marriage is also important. However, the problem is that those reasons exist for same-sex marriage as well. Let us go through the list:

Support of the children: Yes
Encourages stability: yes
Encourage companionship: Yes
Encourage Happiness: Yes
Encourage Intimacy: Yes
Encourages security: Yes
Encourages expression: yes
Encourages fidelity: Yes


Literally every reason that exists to encourage marriage also exists to encourage same sex marriage. I know your really really really want to think that you have found good reason to deny same sex marriage. But, you have not. You are using recycled arguments and poor logic. So with all of these reasons to encourage same sex marriage, why should we not?

That's not "the reason for marriage"; you're just stating some effects of marriage; the essential public purpose marriage exists is to attach a man and a woman to their children and to one another, upon whom the children depend on for their well-being. Because marriage's public purpose is this, we can exclude, say, two men or two women from "marrying" because they cannot even in principle fulfill the essential public purpose of marriage.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
That's not "the reason for marriage"; you're just stating some effects of marriage; the essential public purpose marriage exists is to attach a man and a woman to their children and to one another, upon whom the children depend on for their well-being. Because marriage's public purpose is this, we can exclude, say, two men or two women from "marrying" because they cannot even in principle fulfill the essential public purpose of marriage.

I tis you who got it backwards, what you described is what actually happens when people get married.

The actual reasons for which individual people choose to get married is for what george enlisted.

Legal Marriage is a human institution so it has the purpose that humans give to it and will have the legal effects that law binds it to have.
 
I notice that you keep on appealing to consistency while ignoring the inconsistency in your own position:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...oes-catholic-theology-imply-support-male.html

Keep ignoring? This is another thread! And, to put the OP of that thread in a word or two:

Hilariously laughable and not worthy of the least attention.

The principal reason why the Catholic Church is opposed to same-sex marriage is its commitment to a Thomistic Natural Law theory. But that's a bit over your pay-grade.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
That's not "the reason for marriage"; you're just stating some effects of marriage; the essential public purpose marriage exists is to attach a man and a woman to their children and to one another, upon whom the children depend on for their well-being. Because marriage's public purpose is this, we can exclude, say, two men or two women from "marrying" because they cannot even in principle fulfill the essential public purpose of marriage.

Nope. Those are the reasons. If you want we can change it to the government reasonably believes that.... (fill in any one of the listed item)... causes a public benefit.
 
Exactly what do you think doesn't exist? I'm talking about the legal rights of civil marriage. I don't really care whether it matches up with your twisted model of marriage or not.

This is just what I elaborated on the Restroom Analogy. If marriage really just is people having fuzzy feelings for one another, then there are no grounds for denying, say, two men or three women or 988 people to "marry" for such couplings can all meet the sufficient condition for marriage, namely, "having fuzzy feelings for one another."

If marriage really is just about attaching a man and a woman to each other and to their children, then there is no such thing as two men or two women "marrying."
 
I tis you who got it backwards, what you described is what actually happens when people get married.

The actual reasons for which individual people choose to get married is for what george enlisted.

Again, why individuals get married is irrelevant; an individual could have an innumerable amount of reasons as to why he marries. These would just be private reasons which would not add up to any one public purpose of marriage.

What is relevant, then, is the essential public purpose of marriage. Which just is to attach mothers and fathers to their children and to one another.

Legal Marriage is a human institution so it has the purpose that humans give to it and will have the legal effects that law binds it to have.

One needn't contest that. Now the question simply becomes: what purpose ought we attach to marriage? And that would simply lead back to "marriage attaches mothers and fathers to..."
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
That's not "the reason for marriage"; you're just stating some effects of marriage; the essential public purpose marriage exists is to attach a man and a woman to their children and to one another, upon whom the children depend on for their well-being. Because marriage's public purpose is this, we can exclude, say, two men or two women from "marrying" because they cannot even in principle fulfill the essential public purpose of marriage.

I'm sorry that you do not understand that the government wanting to encourage any one of these is a legitimate government interest but it is.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is just what I elaborated on the Restroom Analogy. If marriage really just is people having fuzzy feelings for one another, then there are no grounds for denying, say, two men or three women or 988 people to "marry" for such couplings can all meet the sufficient condition for marriage, namely, "having fuzzy feelings for one another."

If marriage really is just about attaching a man and a woman to each other and to their children, then there is no such thing as two men or two women "marrying."

Try cutting out the analogies. It seems you're not very good at them.

Again: when I talk about same-sex marriage, I'm talking about a law or set of laws that gives the legal rights of civil marriage to same-sex couples. It most certainly exists.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Again, why individuals get married is irrelevant; an individual could have an innumerable amount of reasons as to why he marries. These would just be private reasons which would not add up to any one public purpose of marriage.

What is relevant, then, is the essential public purpose of marriage. Which just is to attach mothers and fathers to their children and to one another.



One needn't contest that. Now the question simply becomes: what purpose ought we attach to marriage? And that would simply lead back to "marriage attaches mothers and fathers to..."

Yes, and it is a public purpose if the government wants to encourage stability among its citizens.

It is a public purpose if the government wants to encourage happiness of its citizens.

It is a public purpose if the government wants to ensure support of the children of its citizens.

all of the items I listed are for a public purpose. That is: the government feels that it is in the best interest of the public for the public to have options that make them stable, happy, etc.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What is relevant, then, is the essential public purpose of marriage. Which just is to attach mothers and fathers to their children and to one another.
It's fine if you want that to be the purpose for your own marriage, but if you want others to give it any weight, you'll have to actually give an argument for your position.
 
What makes you think sex is any more relevant than race?

The obvious ones that should come to anybody's mind and that I need not repeat here. But, of course, I really do need to repeat them here because the vast majority of people's intuitions seem to be hopelessly corrupted.

Having an African American marry a Caucasian doesn’t impact the essential public purpose of marriage in any way whereas having a man "marry" another man clearly would.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
How can an OP with such a flawed premise even go on for so long. It's so much obvious crap.

Seriously. A scholarly discussion of the failure of my penis would be more productive.

edit: And I have a very failed penis. All it does is pass waste.
 
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