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Arguments for Atheism

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Deists believe that God exists

My definition of a theist is anybody with a god belief, which is why I include deists as a subset of theists, along with polytheists, pantheists, panentheists, and henotheists. Limiting the word theist to mean an interventionalist monotheistic deity makes the word less useful in my estimation. I need a word to describe all people that believe in gods of any kind, and theist seems to fit that bill just fine. When I want to refer to interventionalist monotheistic deities to the exclusion of all other types of deities, then I will use that phrase.

Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

That definition can be improved by removing the word disbelieves., assuming by that that one means claims that no god or gods exist. Such people are a subset of the population of people with no god belief, and their active disbelief is not an essential aspect of atheism, and therefore need not be mentioned in the definition.

You have been told, many times, how different the two words are

What we have been told is how you choose to use the words. Clearly, others here have different preferences.

because you have been so deeply imprinted with your own beliefs you just cannot adjust or change easily, hence the struggling, twisting denialism of your illogical position.

Why do you think that others should accede to your preferences? I've already stated that my choices work for me, and have no reason to make any adjustments. I'd need to be shown why a different formulation was more illuminating to feel otherwise. I can't see a reason to define a theist in any other way than as somebody with a god belief, nor to exclude deists from that category, so I don't.

A = theism
B = intervention/miracles
C = deism

If A accepts B, but C rejects B, then C can’t be A.

And......... in that case, Deists are non-Theists, = Atheists. Ergo, Quad Erat Demonstrandum, Deism is no part of Theism, and Deism is anti-theistic = Atheistic Thankyou..... thankyou..... *oldbadger humbly bowing to left and right*

You have converted A accepts B to A is defined by B.

You seem to be defining A (theism) as not merely including those who believe in an interventionalist god, but limited to them, which allows you to exclude deists from theism. That's all well and good, but not meaningful to those that define theism as the state of holding a god belief. To those not accepting that theism is limited to interventionalist gods, which is presumably your target audience, this argument is not persuasive.
Try rewriting your argument in syllogistic form and the problem becomes more apparent. Perhaps it would look like this:

P1: Theists are exclusively people that believe in interventionalist gods.
P2: Deists don't believe in interventionalist gods.
C: Therefore deists aren't theists.

The argument is valid because its conclusion is correct if its premises are granted, but unsound if the premises are not granted.

many people do use the definitions to be:

Deist - a believer in a non-interventionist God
Theist - a believer in an interventionist God.

And as you can see from this thread, many do not.

If memory serves, you have stated the opinion that god cannot be defined in a way that is inclusive of all god concepts conceived and yet to be conceived. Consequently, god cannot readily be defimed in a meaningful manner to assert that no god exists. If such is the case, one cannot, with internal consistency, claim a definition of god such that god=deity.

A simple and useful definition of a god (excluding pantheonic minor gods like Loki) is a conscious agent that is the source of this or any other universe. That's something that is relatively clear and easily worked with.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Or, maybe, Deists are non-Theists, as are Atheists.

Consider:

A = theism
B = intervention/miracles
C = deism
D = atheism

If D rejects A, B and C, then D cannot be A or C.

OK......... but if D rejects C, then it could well be rejecting a part of itself. Imagine that, philosophical suicide! :D
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Trailblazer & @Subduction Zone

This simple 'equation' came from a quora debate...... quite nice:-

A = theism
B = intervention/miracles
C = deism

If A accepts B, but C rejects B, then C can’t be A.


And......... in that case, Deists are non-Theists, = Atheists.

Ergo, Quad Erat Demonstrandum, Deism is no part of Theism, and Deism is anti-theistic = Atheistic

Thankyou..... thankyou..... *oldbadger humbly bowing to left and right*

:p
Nope, no source there. I thought that I might have missed something so I rolled my cursor over it and the only hits I got were links to members' names.

Let me make your error more clearly. You mixed traits and groups. A very strange and incorrect way to debate.

Using your version of argument I could argue that New World Monkeys are not primates. It is a structurally flawed argument. It almost looks like you are poeing.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
*raises hand* Just to muddy the waters further, deity is singular as well as plural. To use the word "deities" is a frivolous distinction.
:)
I like it.........
I've always considered the word 'Deity' as singular, but can now see that speaking about 'Deity' one would be referring to all many of 'Deities'...... Oh no! I've been frivolous........ ouch!
:D
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
OK......... but if D rejects C, then it could well be rejecting a part of itself. Imagine that, philosophical suicide! :D
Once again, it is not wise to mix traits of a group and groups themselves as if they were one and the same thing. It leads to faulty arguments. You are comparing apples and oranges so to speak.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No, you only demonstrated that you do not know how to use logic properly. Your entire argument was based upon an unwarranted assumption. Once again when you state that deism is spearate from theism you need more than a "because I said so".

But go ahead, you can believe anything you are like, just don't expect not to be corrected when you make your claims public.

You're reaching into the bounds of self delusion if you think that I have not made my Deism and Atheism absolutely and reasonably clear.

I thought that only fundy extremist Christians were totally imprinted with illogical ideas.... but........ :shrug:
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I saw no source, no link. Did I miss it?

You are not a source. I am not a source. That is why I linked my sources and made them clear.
My source came lout of www.quorum..... it was written by a third party, obviously a more reasonable third party than your choices.... :)

And if you would just put down other folk's ideas and use your own common sense you might come round to my easy-to-understand reasoned case.

Deists can be Atheists, because they don't believe in Theism. It's so easy!!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You're reaching into the bounds of self delusion if you think that I have not made my Deism and Atheism absolutely and reasonably clear.

I thought that only fundy extremist Christians were totally imprinted with illogical ideas.... but........ :shrug:

Your errors are clear to anyone else. Your argument amounts to People are primates. People don't have tails. Monkeys have tails therefore they can't be primates. That argument has the same logical flaws as your "logical argument" had.

Cognitive dissonance is a *****.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My source came lout of www.quorum..... it was written by a third party, obviously a more reasonable third party than your choices.... :)

And if you would just put down other folk's ideas and use your own common sense you might come round to my easy-to-understand reasoned case.

Deists can be Atheists, because they don't believe in Theism. It's so easy!!
Dead link. Try again. And just because you found another ignorant person on a forum of all things that does not mean that you found a reliable source.

We need to work on your logic skills. Perhaps you copied that argument incorrectly. But I would still like to see the original source of your argument. It should be good for a few laughs.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My definition of a theist is anybody with a god belief, which is why I include deists as a subset of theists, along with polytheists, pantheists, panentheists, and henotheists. Limiting the word theist to mean an interventionalist monotheistic deity makes the word less useful in my estimation. I need a word to describe all people that believe in gods of any kind, and theist seems to fit that bill just fine. When I want to refer to interventionalist monotheistic deities to the exclusion of all other types of deities, then I will use that phrase.
I agree that using the word "theist" to describe all people that believe in gods of any kind seems to fit that bill just fine.

Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures. https://www.google.com/search?q=theism+means&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

Some theists believe that God intervenes and other theists believe that God does not intervene. That latter are usually referred to as deists; so a deist can be considered a subset of theists or a kind of theist, just like a pantheist is a kind of theist.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Dead link. Try again. And just because you found another ignorant person on a forum of all things that does not mean that you found a reliable source.....

Oh that link is alive, kicking and still available, I just didn't give a full address because I thought that the content as copied was so obviously reasonable as to be acceptable.

However, you've challenged both that and the status of such writers on quorum. I just this moment typed 'deists are atheists' into google and let it go, and came up with the same debate on the same forum one year later than my last visit, and copied on single post from a seemingly competent writer, and I'm guessing who is more qualified as a scientist and doctor of theology than you, maybe? You never did tell what you do for a living, I seem to remember...?

Here you are, so trawl back and forth, but please do read what this writer says, making two Deists who see a connection with atheism..... :)

https://www.quora.com/Is-deism-closer-to-atheism-than-theism
Is deism closer to atheism than theism?
Christopher Finch, PhD Theology, CSI/Forensic Scientist, Stargazer, Deist
Outside of the belief in God, yes, deism is closer to atheism than theism. Deists reject a vast majority of the things that define theism. The biggest (and perhaps, only) difference between a true deist and an atheist, is the belief in an architect behind the universe and natural law, versus the universe happening randomly and naturally. The latter have no explanation for what caused the universe to .......
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Oh that link is alive, kicking and still available, I just didn't give a full address because I thought that the content as copied was so obviously reasonable as to be acceptable.

However, you've challenged both that and the status of such writers on quorum. I just this moment typed 'deists are atheists' into google and let it go, and came up with the same debate on the same forum one year later than my last visit, and copied on single post from a seemingly competent writer, and I'm guessing who is more qualified as a scientist and doctor of theology than you, maybe? You never did tell what you do for a living, I seem to remember...?

Here you are, so trawl back and forth, but please do read what this writer says, making two Deists who see a connection with atheism..... :)

https://www.quora.com/Is-deism-closer-to-atheism-than-theism
Is deism closer to atheism than theism?
Christopher Finch, PhD Theology, CSI/Forensic Scientist, Stargazer, Deist
Outside of the belief in God, yes, deism is closer to atheism than theism. Deists reject a vast majority of the things that define theism. The biggest (and perhaps, only) difference between a true deist and an atheist, is the belief in an architect behind the universe and natural law, versus the universe happening randomly and naturally. The latter have no explanation for what caused the universe to .......

Your supposed source is of no value without a link. The argument given was exceedingly malformed. By the way, your question in the latest link was malformed for this debate as well. It is what is called a "leading question". As you know from the dictionary definitions there are multiple definitions of "theist". You slanted it to a definition that excluded deism.

Nice try. A bit less than proper and another massive fail on your part. I also see that the one person that you cherry picked can't help but to make the unsubstantiated claim that there is evidence for a deity, yet no one from your side can seem to post any.

So one more time: Try again.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Your supposed source is of no value without a link. The argument given was exceedingly malformed. By the way, your question in the latest link was malformed for this debate as well. It is what is called a "leading question". As you know from the dictionary definitions there are multiple definitions of "theist". You slanted it to a definition that excluded deism.

Nice try. A bit less than proper and another massive fail on your part. I also see that the one person that you cherry picked can't help but to make the unsubstantiated claim that there is evidence for a deity, yet no one from your side can seem to post any.

So one more time: Try again.

Ha ha! You cherry pick anything for a support, but refute the words of a Scientist and Doctor of Theology? Are you either of these .... ? :D

I'll not bother to try with you again. You just need to understand that Atheism will never be quite the same again for you, because as soon as you wonder how everything started., you're approaching the threshold of...... Deism.

But don't beat yourself up over it......... it's just simple science!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ha ha! You cherry pick anything for a support, but refute the words of a Scientist and Doctor of Theology? Are you either of these .... ? :D

I'll not bother to try with you again. You just need to understand that Atheism will never be quite the same again for you, because as soon as you wonder how everything started., you're approaching the threshold of...... Deism.

But don't beat yourself up over it......... it's just simple science!
No, at least I found far more reliable sources than you have. Wiki alone beats Quora all to hell and back. It relies on published works. Quora is an unsubstantiated opinion site and nothing more. The sources that I used did refute his claims. He is only a self proclaimed Doctor of Theology. For his work to have any credibility it too would have had to go through the process of publishing where others besides him check and verify his work.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No, at least I found far more reliable sources than you have. Wiki alone beats Quora all to hell and back. It relies on published works. Quora is an unsubstantiated opinion site and nothing more. The sources that I used did refute his claims. He is only a self proclaimed Doctor of Theology. For his work to have any credibility it too would have had to go through the process of publishing where others besides him check and verify his work.

Like yours?
:facepalm:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Like yours?
:facepalm:
Yes, every single one that I used sources that went through that process. All you have is an opinion of a man that does not work in the field.

You really need to learn how to use smileys appropriately as well. Use of Quora as a source merits facepalm.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes, every single one that I used sources that went through that process. All you have is an opinion of a man that does not work in the field.

You really need to learn how to use smileys appropriately as well. Use of Quora as a source merits facepalm.

We're done.
Honestly....
:facepalm:

Last post to you......... do make something of it........ for once.
:p
 
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