Arguments for God's existence - of a lover trying to convince someone to be certain.

[Link]

Having fallen in love with a person that I care so much about that they are only the person I worry about when reading about hell fire, I've been able to simplify arguments that I presented in a very complicated way to Atheists over the years. Perhaps, my love for her, will cause me able to communicate the proofs for God, his Messengers and in particular the family of Taha and Yaseen and the majestic reminder linked to their holy souls, in a way, that people can understand, because I really want her to understand and believe.

Anyways, here is a recent version I've presented to her of an argument I use to write walls of text to emphasize on but have been able to simplify:

1. Deeds have a value reality that alongside the intention of the doer require a value that can only be seen and created by an absolute perfect being in judgement and perception.

2. We know we do deeds that have both qualitative and quantitative value in intention and state of the doer.

Conclusion: all humans see God as part of the dimension to how deeds are possible and do have value whether negative positive or neutral.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

She is a non-Muslim that you're working on getting to see things the way you do?

 

[Link]

She is a non-Muslim that you're working on getting to see things the way you do?

Yes.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

value reality

I'm having a big problem trying to understand what is meant by the above. What is a "value reality?"

 

[Link]

I'm having a big problem trying to understand what is meant by the above. What is a "value reality?"

When doing deeds, we are in motion of action but also have an inner state or continuous motion of intentions/states, those continuous states while doing the action, has a moral value, good bad neutral, exact precise value and even the very beauty of it or ugliness is precise and exact - and without God, this is not possible, since that value is determined from his judgement and eternal vision and he creates the deed ALONG side with our free-will, without his vision, the deeds are not possible, just as without our free-will the deeds are not possible.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Yes.

Does the girl at least know you like her / love her, and she claims to like you / love you back romantically and sexually (so that its not just a one-sided stalkerish type thing that happens sometimes)? Does the girl also know you want / expect her to be a Muslim or become a Muslim eventually (ideally before marriage)?

I married a person who hasn't yet started to pray or anything, but I hope and expect them to.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I'm having a big problem trying to understand what is meant by the above. What is a "value reality?"

Based on their explanation above, I think they are saying that God determines the actual reality or values of things as God chooses and wills to (as the designer and creator of them, so the final authority about their quality and value or worth or rating and status).

 

[Link]

Based on their explanation above, I think they are saying that God determines the actual reality or values of things as God chooses and wills to (as the designer and creator of them, so the final authority about their quality and value or worth or rating and status).

That, and ultimately, the intention and who we are is hidden from us and all things even the witnessing guide of our time, but exists in hidden beyond all comprehension except God's vision and comprehension.

Ultimately, no one really fully knows anyone but God.

 

[Link]

And the reason for that is because God is absolute judgment and perception, it's, naturally impossible, for anyone to truly fully be able to judge deeds or a person or assign them their reality but God.

Our brains certainly can't do it. We can't do it. Not even Angels and Prophets can do it.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

When doing deeds, we are in motion of action but also have an inner state or continuous motion of intentions/states, those continuous states while doing the action, has a moral value, good bad neutral, exact precise value and even the very beauty of it or ugliness is precise and exact - and without God, this is not possible, since that value is determined from his judgement and eternal vision and he creates the deed ALONG side with our free-will, without his vision, the deeds are not possible, just as without our free-will the deeds are not possible.

This didn't really answer my question about "value reality", but I will respond to what you have written.

I don't believe what you have written to be so, and there seem to be a great many steps missing in the leap you have made directly to "God must exist to support this."

Your reasoning or understanding imparted on several points here seems to be very confused. For example - there is no "exact precise value" to an good/bad/neutral act that I could possibly accept. Such a thing simply cannot be demonstrated to exist or be able to be measured. For a simple example - let's say I come across a man who is hanging off of a cliff, and I have the opportunity to save him, by helping him up. Being a "good" person myself (relative to what many people deem "good" - which is the betterment of mankind, and, by extension, individual people) I do so, and help save him from falling. What I did not know is that he is a child molester and murderer, and the only reason he was over the cliff in the first place is because a child he had kidnapped, managed to push him off, and she ran off into the woods before I came onto the scene. So now, what I have done by saving this man's life is to enable this man to again pursue the child. So the child was relatively safe from harm until I came up and saved the man whose intent is to rape and kill her. Can you tell me the "exact precise value" of morality for my deed of saving the murdering rapist's life - especially considering that he then goes on to murder and rape the child I did not know was out there?

 

[Link]

So you saying there is no value to any of our actions?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Based on their explanation above, I think they are saying that God determines the actual reality or values of things as God chooses and wills to (as the designer and creator of them, so the final authority about their quality and value or worth or rating and status).

The problem with that interpretation is that God's existence is then assumed for the definition of "value reality," when that term is being used in a premise to convince someone of God's existence. There is a huge problem with this. To convince a person who does not already believe in God that one exists, YOU CANNOT lead with "Well, since God [X], then therefore God." That isn't going to work, or be at all convincing. That is a failure to reason of enormous magnitude.

 

[Link]

The argument is not circular.

 

[PureX]

It's very simple.

God is an idea.
Ideas exist.
Therefor God exists.

Our ideas determine who we are and how we live in the world.
God is a meta-ideal.
Therefor God profoundly affects who we are and how we live in the world.

Our ideals get expressed in the world through our actions.
Our actions generate effects far beyond our immediate circumstance, and cognizance.
God therefor effects the world far beyond ourselves in ways that we cannot know.

These are just some simple, logical observations that can be used to argue for God's existence and real affect on humanity and the world, i.e., theism. And they align with most any religious view.

Perhaps it's better to look for alignment, rather than epiphany. Especially someone else's.

 

[JustGeorge]

Having fallen in love with a person that I care so much about that they are only the person I worry about when reading about hell fire, I've been able to simplify arguments that I presented in a very complicated way to Atheists over the years. Perhaps, my love for her, will cause me able to communicate the proofs for God, his Messengers and in particular the family of Taha and Yaseen and the majestic reminder linked to their holy souls, in a way, that people can understand, because I really want her to understand and believe.

Anyways, here is a recent version I've presented to her of an argument I use to write walls of text to emphasize on but have been able to simplify:

1. Deeds have a value reality that alongside the intention of the doer require a value that can only be seen and created by an absolute perfect being in judgement and perception.

2. We know we do deeds that have both qualitative and quantitative value in intention and state of the doer.

Conclusion: all humans see God as part of the dimension to how deeds are possible and do have value whether negative positive or neutral.

She is a non-Muslim that you're working on getting to see things the way you do?

What does she believe initially? And what kind of person is she? Not all claims will move all kinds of people. If you want someone to see something the way you do, you have to appeal to the way their minds work. A person who is very logic based might want to debate in this manner, but a person who is emotion based, or action based may only be moved by other means.

I would also avoid mentioning wanting to save her from hellfire. People who do not believe in hellfire are very turned off of religious arguments by hearing such things. Rather, if your religion brings you joy, find ways to share that joy with her.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

So you saying there is no value to any of our actions?

No OBJECTIVE value, no. We, of course, SUBJECTIVELY evaluate any given activity or action taken by humans all the time. We attempt to assess the "good"/"bad" of things, and come to some sort of determination on that score that can be used by ourselves or authorities... but there is no OBJECTIVE value at all.

Something OBJECTIVE would be that which simply is, regardless who is doing the assessment of the thing. Like gravity. There it is, and there it will stay, and no observer is able to escape it or interpret/react to it differently. Its effects are what they are, and you must simply accept that.

When considering "good" or "bad" there is not one, specific value that anyone or anything must necessarily come to. An example I always go to is the house-fly. The house-fly assesses a living human and might come to the conclusion that a living human being is nothing more than a nuisance. Always batting it away from potential meals. However a dead human? Well, a house-fly would absolutely DELIGHT in coming across a dead human being. In fact... if you died right in front of it in a terribly horrific act of violence, the house-fly would STILL DELIGHT in laying its eggs in your remains, and perhaps eating a little for itself before flying off. The house-fly DOES NOT RECOGNIZE your "value" as a human being - not like other humans might. And why is this? It is because that value is ENTIRELY a matter of perspective.

 

[Link]

No OBJECTIVE value, no. We, of course, SUBJECTIVELY evaluate any given activity or action taken by humans all the time. We attempt to assess the "good"/"bad" of things, and come to some sort of determination on that score that can be used by ourselves or authorities... but there is no OBJECTIVE value at all. Something OBJECTIVE would be that which simply is, regardless who is doing the assessment of the thing. Like gravity. There it is, and there it will stay, and no observer is able to escape it or interpret/react to it differently. Its effects are what they are, and you must simply accept that. When considering "good" or "bad" there is not one, specific value that anyone or anything must necessarily come to. An example I always go to is the house fly. The house fly assesses a living human and might come to the conclusion that a living human being is nothing more than a nuisance. Always batting it away from potential meals. However a dead human? Well, a house fly would absolutely DELIGHT in coming across a dead human being. In fact... if you died right in front of it in a terribly horrific act of violence, the house fly would STILL DELIGHT in laying its eggs in your remains, and perhaps eating a little for itself before flying off. The house fly DOES NOT RECOGNIZE your "value" as a human being - not like other humans might. And why is this? It is because that value is ENTIRELY a matter of perspective.

So you saying we assign value but there is no value in reality?

 

[Rival]

It would seem more productive to have an indepth discussion about these things rather than you outwardly trying to persuade her. The arguments you give aren't exactly simple and are perhaps more likely to confuse than help. Have you tried learning about her faith or lackthereof?

It's unbelievably hard falling for someone from a different faith, but if you really love the person their behaviours tend to rub off on you, too, and you can learn a lot from the person.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I could not reject someone based on their religion unfortunately, I'm a sucker for beauty (pronounced booty).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Having fallen in love with a person that I care so much about that they are only the person I worry about when reading about hell fire, I've been able to simplify arguments that I presented in a very complicated way to Atheists over the years. Perhaps, my love for her, will cause me able to communicate the proofs for God, his Messengers and in particular the family of Taha and Yaseen and the majestic reminder linked to their holy souls, in a way, that people can understand, because I really want her to understand and believe.

Anyways, here is a recent version I've presented to her of an argument I use to write walls of text to emphasize on but have been able to simplify:

1. Deeds have a value reality that alongside the intention of the doer require a value that can only be seen and created by an absolute perfect being in judgement and perception.

2. We know we do deeds that have both qualitative and quantitative value in intention and state of the doer.

Conclusion: all humans see God as part of the dimension to how deeds are possible and do have value whether negative positive or neutral.

Speaking as someone who was married to a theist who made it her business to convince me: don't do it.

Your personal beliefs are your problem to solve for yourself. Don't try to make your problem her problem.

You know that she's not a Muslim; respect her and her worldview. If you want your worldviews to be in agreement, do this by trying to change your own views to be aligned with hers.

If you don't respect the fact that the process that led to her worldview is just as valid as the process that led to yours, then you don't have the respect for her that would be the foundation of a relationship of equals.