Reality doesn't have a determined value. Value is *only* assigned by living things and for the purposes of those living things.
The concept of 'value' isn't even something that shows up in objective reality. it is a subjective assessment.
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Arguments for God's existence - of a lover trying to convince someone to be certain.
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Reality doesn't have a determined value. Value is *only* assigned by living things and for the purposes of those living things.
The concept of 'value' isn't even something that shows up in objective reality. it is a subjective assessment.
IMO, the only "God" we experience is the human brain. A lot of processing is done by the brain which we are not consciously aware of. Like qualitative and quantitative values. Since we are not consciously aware of these processes, we assume they come from a source outside of ourselves. People feel if they did not consciously decide on these values then it must have been given to them by "God".
The problem is, these values are not really universal. There is commonality because of a commonality of human experience. However, all values are not the same for everyone.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
That is a more or less valid summation of what I am saying, yes.
And again, the evidence for that very idea exists all around us here on Earth. Every conscious agent on the planet is working toward its own goals, and valuing different things as higher or lower priority than the next conscious agent. Every single one. The house-fly delights in dead flesh and decay. The squirrel prizes nuts. The polar bear goes for the fat of the seal. The toad finds his tastes are the insects. A human might find his delight in painfully hot peppers. Which of these is "good?" Is there such a thing? Can it be meaningfully measured in any way that doesn't involve the particular tastes and predilections of the one doing the measuring?
Meaning and value has to be subjective for sure, but is objective and subjective mutual exclusive? For sure it would be if only humans assigned value as far as humans go, but if God is the judge and perceiver and his reality is the standard by which he judges and assigns value to what he has created and knows what he has created in truth, then it's not mutually exclusive.
The thing is from my understanding, subjective value is in fact impossible without BELIEF in objective value. Now you can say that belief is an illusion in humans, but you yourself cannot subjectively value humans and their worth, if you don't believe in objective value. You may doubt it's objectiveness, but also love is what values all things in all senses, whether beauty wise or other type of hues, but essentially when you appreciate a person and their love, you believe in objective nature of their act.
And you yourself when you act by love, know love has a value, you know your love is of worth when you help a person or care about a person. Romantic love can be selfish, it can also be a bit selfless, or combination of the two, but love on truth is possible.
Preferring and valuing one's pleasure over all pleasures of rest of humans (selfishness) is itself mathematically irrational. It's illogical. It's in fact, this selfish ego, that is irrational and doesn't see truth math wise, that seeks to topple the rights of others over oneself, and prefers oneself over the well being of other people, or prefers one's nation, over other nation is irrational. In fact, the last statement, preferring one's nation or people over others, and looking down upon other people, it is said one grain of that, makes it impossible to enter heaven. And it's because such type of thoughts are only possible when one is engrossed in irrational thinking and into themselves, and doesn't love in truth.
It is probably true and I would say for me it's a certainly, but for most, people, it's certainly probable, most humans don't value and love on truth. This is why Quran says on the day of judgment all friends will be enemies except the God-fearing.
This means - their relationships and foundation of love was based on falsehood, even to each other, and they enjoyed one's company, valued each other, but all that vision of love was an illusion with no reality and truth behind it.
So I'm agreeing and disagreeing. I'm saying most humans know their is objective value to themselves and others, but still, they don't value that objective value in themselves and others, but rather, build their love on illusion from Satan, and indeed worship Satan and his uncleanness in everything they do heedlessly (not very much people purposely love Satan). Yet, even for them to value on falsehood, they have to believe that they have value in their first place or others have value. Sure they can measure all that falsely, this is true, but it doesn't take away it's impossible for them to believe in their falsehood of value without belief in there existing objective value.
The foremost thing to be noted - believing in objective value doesn't mean you know it exists. But this is why there exists for example over 30 hadiths in Shiite sources saying to seek knowledge of the self, as who knows themselves, knows their Lord - paraphrased in many ways.
Whoever truly knows themselves knows their Lord, a version of this hadith also is whoever knows their worth knows their Lord. What is meant by the hadith is not knowing yourself as in your favorite food or career or skin color, but in essence, your worth, your worth in truth, and not by praise of others, but vision in truth. This knowledge is to be sought. But we do know it exists, we know we exist and can find ourselves. It's none-sensical to say you cannot know who you are. In fact, who you are is the most obvious yet most obscure, most manifest, yet most hidden thing, it's both clear and very ambiguous, and this is the nature of fight in your soul between falsehood and truth. If you seek mental clarity to who you are and seek knowledge from the proper avenues and doors, you will find it.
In my belief system, this is not any clergy class or any people or any group or any "religion" officially known, it's by relying on God and light, and finding the chosen ones, and relying on God's book a long side using his chosen ones to explain it and awaken you to it's themes and let them break the dark magic that keeps humanity from benefiting from it, despite the book clear display of the dark magic and way of truth (White magic) to destroy it.
At the end, there is no human, except extreme people without any compassion or value or moral sense, that don't believe that there is objective value to both actions and humans.
You can argue philosophically, yet, love is the foundation of who you are, and so if you aim towards falsehood and measure falsely, you destroy it and corrupt it, and if you seek truth and discipline to only accept based on knowledge and proofs, you will surely, awaken to mental clarity and love the truthful and the true good people on earth, be they few or many, be they notorious or famous or unknown, and you will find the religion that God has chosen, even if no official sect or form exists of it outwardly.
The thing is from my understanding, subjective value is in fact impossible without BELIEF in objective value. Now you can say that belief is an illusion in humans, but you yourself cannot subjectively value humans and their worth, if you don't believe in objective value. You may doubt it's objectiveness, but also love is what values all things in all senses, whether beauty wise or other type of hues, but essentially when you appreciate a person and their love, you believe in objective nature of their act.
And you yourself when you act by love, know love has a value, you know your love is of worth when you help a person or care about a person. Romantic love can be selfish, it can also be a bit selfless, or combination of the two, but love on truth is possible.
Preferring and valuing one's pleasure over all pleasures of rest of humans (selfishness) is itself mathematically irrational. It's illogical. It's in fact, this selfish ego, that is irrational and doesn't see truth math wise, that seeks to topple the rights of others over oneself, and prefers oneself over the well being of other people, or prefers one's nation, over other nation is irrational. In fact, the last statement, preferring one's nation or people over others, and looking down upon other people, it is said one grain of that, makes it impossible to enter heaven. And it's because such type of thoughts are only possible when one is engrossed in irrational thinking and into themselves, and doesn't love in truth.
It is probably true and I would say for me it's a certainly, but for most, people, it's certainly probable, most humans don't value and love on truth. This is why Quran says on the day of judgment all friends will be enemies except the God-fearing.
This means - their relationships and foundation of love was based on falsehood, even to each other, and they enjoyed one's company, valued each other, but all that vision of love was an illusion with no reality and truth behind it.
So I'm agreeing and disagreeing. I'm saying most humans know their is objective value to themselves and others, but still, they don't value that objective value in themselves and others, but rather, build their love on illusion from Satan, and indeed worship Satan and his uncleanness in everything they do heedlessly (not very much people purposely love Satan). Yet, even for them to value on falsehood, they have to believe that they have value in their first place or others have value. Sure they can measure all that falsely, this is true, but it doesn't take away it's impossible for them to believe in their falsehood of value without belief in there existing objective value.
The foremost thing to be noted - believing in objective value doesn't mean you know it exists. But this is why there exists for example over 30 hadiths in Shiite sources saying to seek knowledge of the self, as who knows themselves, knows their Lord - paraphrased in many ways.
Whoever truly knows themselves knows their Lord, a version of this hadith also is whoever knows their worth knows their Lord. What is meant by the hadith is not knowing yourself as in your favorite food or career or skin color, but in essence, your worth, your worth in truth, and not by praise of others, but vision in truth. This knowledge is to be sought. But we do know it exists, we know we exist and can find ourselves. It's none-sensical to say you cannot know who you are. In fact, who you are is the most obvious yet most obscure, most manifest, yet most hidden thing, it's both clear and very ambiguous, and this is the nature of fight in your soul between falsehood and truth. If you seek mental clarity to who you are and seek knowledge from the proper avenues and doors, you will find it.
In my belief system, this is not any clergy class or any people or any group or any "religion" officially known, it's by relying on God and light, and finding the chosen ones, and relying on God's book a long side using his chosen ones to explain it and awaken you to it's themes and let them break the dark magic that keeps humanity from benefiting from it, despite the book clear display of the dark magic and way of truth (White magic) to destroy it.
At the end, there is no human, except extreme people without any compassion or value or moral sense, that don't believe that there is objective value to both actions and humans.
You can argue philosophically, yet, love is the foundation of who you are, and so if you aim towards falsehood and measure falsely, you destroy it and corrupt it, and if you seek truth and discipline to only accept based on knowledge and proofs, you will surely, awaken to mental clarity and love the truthful and the true good people on earth, be they few or many, be they notorious or famous or unknown, and you will find the religion that God has chosen, even if no official sect or form exists of it outwardly.
What you say makes sense from your perspective. But if I'm sure of my path, then, yes, I have to appear as close-minded and opinionated to her and others, but do it with as much grace as possible.
If I had doubt, I would be willing to leave my faith. I'm not saying I have doubt or don't, but it's a balance, sometimes I Will appear as if I have doubt and an open minded, other times it looks I know what I'm talking about with certainty.
But whether I have a doubt to my path or not, that is not provable to anyone, even if everything I teach is the truth, it wouldn't prove I don't doubt. But yeah she can have a go and try to convince me, I don't mind.
You see how hell fire is used as a tool to make people join a particular religious group... if you want to free yourself from this consuming fire that it created by your fear of some hell fire, study the near death experiences that people had and have and you will get to see another picture of what's beyond this life... then you will no longer need religion. No more programming, you will be on your own, using your own God given mind, so no more worrying...
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is simply not true at all, and your understanding is therefore flawed.
"Subjective" - refers to a mind's perception of a thing, which is entirely contained within the SUBJECT doing the thinking.
"Objective" - refers to the ACTUAL OBJECT that may be the target of such thoughts.
So if we say that something has "subjective value" that doesn't necessarily mean that we accept that there is some ACTUAL OBJECT in reality that constitutes "value." It simply means that the value being perceived is restricted to the mind of the individual doing the perceiving - there doesn't have to exist some corollary object out in the universe that represents the "true essence" of this value or something. That's just a silly idea.
To say something is an "objective reality" implies that it exists independent of a mind doing any thinking or perceiving. Therefore "Objective value" is really not even a possibility, since you necessarily MUST introduce an agent assessing such value. "Value" itself is an abstract. It isn't like "gravity" or "energy" or "space." We (or whosoever) introduced it into the universe as a thought the first time it was thunk.
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There is no dichotomy though as far as value goes and God's absolute perception of it. There is only a dichotomy if you forget God sees it and think only humans are guessing at it with no reality behind it (in God's vision - in his unseen knowledge of who we are which only he knows).
What I was saying is that as far as value goes, we would not value things if we don't believe there is an objective value. It's like guessing at the sun size from far, sure, at a certain points guessed without knowledge and without tools to know, but it's impossible to believe there is no size and guess a size.
You can't have wrong judgments of value of deeds and people without belief there is an objective value to who they are. But since value is necessarily subjective too, this is why God is needed for it to be objective as well.
Only God is valuing completely objective and subjective at the same time, but that's because his vision is true and based on reality of what he knows to be true of himself. I hope you can the gist, what I mean by subjective, it needs perception and assessment which is his judgment, what I mean by objective, it's that it's truth is created with respect to the reality of himself which is true. He is ultimately the light and assess darkness and light of all things through his perception of reality of who he is.
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Four things I don't believe in blindly but recognize the proof for.
(1) The existence of evil people who God's wrath is forever upon if they die in a state which they don't repent to God.
(2) The intense fire being forever as a result of God's wrath and judgment and retribution.
(3) The constant increasing of punishment forever and ever, doubling forever and ever, but there is different types of hell and levels in that, and in speed, and in hue/type of fire.
(4) That Glory and beauty in God's Retributing nature though this is something he and his chosen strive in this world for humans to avoid, ultimately, when humans refuse all the help and proofs and fail his trials and don't love God more then everything else and even put evil things and unclean acts to be more in value to them then God and closeness to him or having earned his pleasure, there is a sublime beauty and glory in this final act of justice, vengeance, and retribution. It's true his mercy precedes his wrath, but his intense retribution and hate is also beautiful in it's own place as final judgment when we fail his trials and don't take his warnings and those who sent and chosen to help guide us seriously.
One if not the main the reason I left Islam for 5 years, was the issue of hell.
So to come to Quran and Ahlulbayt (a), I had to see the proofs for this eventually in Quran to become firm in this belief.
My friend, I ask you this, if you read in the news about a person, does that mean that you actually know that person? Does that mean that they way that person is described in the news is actually a true description of that person?
By the way, remember that God made all things and that God sustains all things and that God is in all things, evil is also part of God and in God, if something exists outside of God, then God is not God, but a god, so for evil to not be part of God makes little to no sense. When you say evil people, I say, God is also in them, when you say evil demons, then God is also in them, neither of them could exist outside of God.
If you don't evolve from religion to freedom of thought, then you will not find God in this life, only primitive versions of God born out of the human mind... Know the truth and the truth shall set you free, are you free? I don't think so, fear is not a property of having freedom, it's more a result of not having freedom.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I am not even sure what you are trying to say with this.
It's not like I believe God exists in the first place, so I didn't "forget" anything. All of these things you are saying, while merely assuming God's existence, are lost on me. This has no meaning.
Absolutely untrue. There are plenty of things we imagine in our minds that do not necessarily have objective corollaries - that is, things that exist in reality that represent the thing we came to in our minds. For example: beauty. What object in reality can you point to as an objective standard of "beauty?" There is none. Hence the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - and indeed, beauty itself REQUIRES a beholder to even be evaluated. Truly a subjective quality.
Again, not quite sure I can deduce the meaning of this paragraph, but that last bit is just assumption. Since there is no such thing as "objective value judgments" (which I have already demonstrated - by pointing out that measurement of "valuation" of ANY kind requires some observer doing the measuring), then God is certainly not necessary to provide that which cannot exist.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. I doubt it makes any sense to anyone, honestly - not even you, yourself. You are confused.
Physical existence is impossible, the only type existence is idea type existence, spiritual type existence. That said, evil people are negative in terms of God's vision of them, they are negative value. God is completely positive. Everything has a place, while it's good to try to save souls while you can when you have compassion, it's almost important to distance oneself when they die in a evil state and curse them even depending on their evil state they died and what stance they took in this world that causes so much havoc and corruption, though they might deceive themselves they are good and bring good to others in the earth.
You have built an entire defensive mechanism in order to answer the questions you had about your belief, I did that, every religios person does that, of course, if they really care about their religion, but things don't stop here, we do this every day with many other things, in special when we want to prove that our point of view stands. This is the play of the human Ego...
Physical existence itself is the manifestation of God, it has to be this way, otherwise, we are living somewhere outside of God so this "somewhere" is also containing God but I doubt so. We can not see God in the physical existence, maybe some can... you know, it's a state of mind. Think about your most best days, it was like God was everywhere making all things work for you but in your lowest days, God seemed to be nowhere, it is just a state of mind... what's beyond this never ending carrousel of moving up and down, up and down, I suppose, true peace.
You should also study the other religions of the world to get the big picture then you can come to a better understanding of the human condition, knowledge is the light of the mind.
It's not possible to disrespect someone with grace.
Hopefully she won't want to change you. I was trying to tell you that if you actually loved her - not some idealized version of her you've created, but who she actually is - you wouldn't want to change her either.
Maybe consider whether you've fallen in love with her or with the person you want to change her into.
Humans are always changing and I believe in her improving ways and that she is humble enough to accept truth when shown to her. I dislike some traits in her, and I love some traits in her, but I find myself caring for her, more then liking or disliking her. I have had within 6 months, 27 dreams about her, and I had a dream when I was a kid that stuck to me, and I'm pretty sure it was about her, and I can't prove it but I believe in the pre-world, I did make a promise to protect her before coming to this world. How I know this to be true, I can't prove objectively and when I tried hating/cutting off from her, due to our religious difference, in real life, not dream, not near sleeping time, but rather I listened to a chapter of Quran on my laptop and was resolved to cut off from her, I had a vision of her entire body in front of me and she appeared super sad - I never told her this and probably won't for a long time - but it was her state on the day of judgement. She was in pain, and ever since then, I don't read Quran and fear for myself though I probably deserve hell more then most people and certainly more then her, and I've even realized I care about her so much (and can't justify it rationally) - that if it was the case it was possible to burden the burden of others, and exchange paradise for hell, if it meant another person get's paradise, I know 100% about myself I would do this for her.
I would for sure also take a bullet for her in a heart beat. No I don't like every trait and state and actions she does, and I see something in her, she doesn't see in herself, and no one around her probably sees and I'm in love in something in her other people in her life will never recognize about her. If I fail to guide her, perhaps it's not my fault but perhaps it is.
At a point she appealed to me - to talk about everything wrong with her, and was broken in that state, but because I been a hypocrite through and through with my knowledge, I couldn't command her to good traits and forbid her evil traits, and just had to tell her that God will forgive a thousand of her sins before he forgives one of mine, because I have a lot of knowledge while she doesn't know.
I never felt so bad, for not having followed through with my knowledge, and I know if my words are to effect her to guidance, I can't just talk the talk, but must walk the walk. I pray for her everyday, and I've talked to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) more about her in these past 6 months and mainly to ask God to protect her until she is guided at least and not let her die in a state of disbelief, more then I ever talked to them for myself my entire life.
This has never happened to me, I've found women attractive my whole life, crushes yes, even obsession before, but this is the first time I find myself caring about a person more then myself.
I would for sure also take a bullet for her in a heart beat. No I don't like every trait and state and actions she does, and I see something in her, she doesn't see in herself, and no one around her probably sees and I'm in love in something in her other people in her life will never recognize about her. If I fail to guide her, perhaps it's not my fault but perhaps it is.
At a point she appealed to me - to talk about everything wrong with her, and was broken in that state, but because I been a hypocrite through and through with my knowledge, I couldn't command her to good traits and forbid her evil traits, and just had to tell her that God will forgive a thousand of her sins before he forgives one of mine, because I have a lot of knowledge while she doesn't know.
I never felt so bad, for not having followed through with my knowledge, and I know if my words are to effect her to guidance, I can't just talk the talk, but must walk the walk. I pray for her everyday, and I've talked to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) more about her in these past 6 months and mainly to ask God to protect her until she is guided at least and not let her die in a state of disbelief, more then I ever talked to them for myself my entire life.
This has never happened to me, I've found women attractive my whole life, crushes yes, even obsession before, but this is the first time I find myself caring about a person more then myself.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I am trying to understand, but you keep saying nonsensical things that honestly just seem like a bunch of key words strung together which you try and pretend make some kind of point. Be direct, be forthright. My guess is that all this running around the point, not actually ever getting anywhere, but pretending with all your might that you have is what is turning your prospective love interest off from your theological entreaties.
Here again, you are entirely confused. When I mentioned that the argument relied on the assumption of God, it was in response to @The Artis Magistra (not in response to you), and it was specifically tailored to the idea he posited (again NOT you) that when you said "value reality" in the initial post, you were, perhaps, referring to the "objective reality of value" as God has established it. And THAT would be a circular argument, for sure. You can't have as one of your premises in an argument attempted as a proof for the existence of God, a term whose meaning relies entirely on the assumption that God exists.
So if that isn't what you're doing then I never even indirectly accused you of making a circular argument. If "value reality" in no way includes "God" in its definition (which, after going back and re-reading your reply, I am STILL not clear on), then fine. But if, however, "value reality" does already include "God" baked into the definition, then your premise 1 is problematic - because it would simply assume two things at that point, and both of them would point to "God" as an assumed reality. Your point 1 would become this:
OP reformatted said:
The bit in red is what I substituted for "value reality", by assuming that it means God established it. Or, paraphrased, because we all know your intention on who to name as this "absolute perfect being":
OP reformatted said:
Do you see the problem? This is supposed to be an independent proof for God (unless that isn't what you're going for) and yet in the first premise, you assumed God's existence twice already.
I'm more and more getting the feeling that you simply don't have the tools to accomplish what you are trying to here. You have a lot of flowery talk, and it seems very much like you attempt to hide your own inability to produce anything cogent/realistic in the floweriness and buzz-wordiness of it all. I don't see much substance here, at all. You need to overcome this perception if you are going to win over anyone. Again - be more direct. Stop being so wordy without getting anywhere. State your points and ideas more directly and I am sure you will see what I do above... that you are simply entirely intent on assuming God's existence and you therefore aren't even equipped to come at the argument from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in God at all. You don't even know how not to assume God's existence in other words, and so you even leaving a tiny, little shred of indirect attribution to God is something you feel is you approaching the subject from the stance that God doesn't exist. That's as far as your mind can go... and it isn't nearly far enough.