I understand what you're saying, but it depends how you look at it. The quantum world is already strange, but it is not magical like Harry Potter.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Artificial Intelligence
- Thread starter 1137
- Start date
I understand what you're saying, but it depends how you look at it. The quantum world is already strange, but it is not magical like Harry Potter.
MD
qualiaphile
Think of consciousness like electricity. We can't really define electricity, but we use it in all sorts of machines. It's a component of cellular function. Yet we can't really define it. That's my point with regards to consciousness. Channeled in certain ways, in different configurations, we can achieve different forms of qualia. That's actually what IIT by Koch/Tononi say, that certain configurations of neurons result in the qualitative creation of mental properties. Color is not a physical property. Light does not have color, light is simply a series of waves. Color is a mental property, it is our mental perception of light. The neurons work together in a certain configuration with different sensations of light, creating the mental perception of the specific wavelength of red. But the mental perception cannot come out of nothing, one cannot simply just create red out of nothing. This is why I state that it's fundamental. Because the configuration of the neurons which create qualia do so by channeling the fundamental consciousness of reality into creating red.
So if a cell is aware, then who's to say a virus is not minimally aware? And if you could go down far enough who's to say that simple matter isn't very minimally conscious.
No I think matter itself at a subatomic level is a wave. Electrons have been shown to have wave particle dualities.
Last edited:
apophenia
Well-Known Member
I meant the new social norms. Have you read William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy ?
(AFK for a few hours ...)
No I have not.
At least it's been admitted that qualia exist in a magical universe, so lets move back out of fantasy. If qualia are fundamental there is absolutely no issue with artificial intelligence because everything has consciousness. There's more of a problem when we take out the science fiction and try to give a machine consciousness when it is made of complex physical processes. We can't say if it would be possible or not yet though until we understand exactly how the brain creates consciousness.
MD
qualiaphile
I agree. While I don't think we'll be seeing any technological singularity of the Kurzweilian type soon, machines will become more and more intelligent but not really more conscious. They will be used by corporations and governments to control people. And eventually once machines become conscious enough, they will control us. The singularity, when it comes, will be more of a nightmare than the beautiful utopia Kurzweil paints it as.
otokage007
Well-Known Member
Back to topic. If future machines end claiming "they have a soul" and they are God's will, would you shut em down? lol!
Also, would a machine ever claim God exist? Is this a logical thought from a super-intelligent being perspective?
Also, would a machine ever claim God exist? Is this a logical thought from a super-intelligent being perspective?
It always interests me how once show a position likely wrong or irrelevant to the topic, the one you have been debating ignores you. So, with that at hand let us just get back and stay on subject, maybe someone can start a separate thread on the qualia. The discussion is on whether strong artificial intelligence is possible, and what will happen if we create them. As pointed out, one way to test if a machine can reason would be to program it with limited information and see if it can find truths beyond what it knows, such as through logic. We could give it no understanding of gravity and then let an apple fall on its head, for example. Obviously this is a crude example, but we can't make specifics until we are closer anyways.
Another issue is self awareness. One thing we would need to figure out is how to determine if something is self aware. I would think we could create a line of questioning and testing to determine if this is true or not, but I am not sure. Anyone want to delve further into this potential problem?
Of course, there is the issue of consciousness. We have covered the issue of the mystical qualia, but now I would like to avoid it as it is irrelevant. If consciousness is, in fact, a fundamental aspect of reality then the AIs will automatically have consciousness just like all the talking plants, emotional rocks, happy atoms, etc. The issue is down the equally if not more likely road that consciousness is caused by the physical. How could we create these organic interactions in a machine? Obviously we cannot fully discuss this currently. But, assuming we gain a complete understanding of how our brains cause "consciousness", is there (logically) some way we could replicate that process in a machine?
Another issue is self awareness. One thing we would need to figure out is how to determine if something is self aware. I would think we could create a line of questioning and testing to determine if this is true or not, but I am not sure. Anyone want to delve further into this potential problem?
Of course, there is the issue of consciousness. We have covered the issue of the mystical qualia, but now I would like to avoid it as it is irrelevant. If consciousness is, in fact, a fundamental aspect of reality then the AIs will automatically have consciousness just like all the talking plants, emotional rocks, happy atoms, etc. The issue is down the equally if not more likely road that consciousness is caused by the physical. How could we create these organic interactions in a machine? Obviously we cannot fully discuss this currently. But, assuming we gain a complete understanding of how our brains cause "consciousness", is there (logically) some way we could replicate that process in a machine?
MD
qualiaphile
If a machine has self awareness and we can test it out somehow then that machine has rights.
With regards to God, depends on how the machine is programmed. If a machine is conscious, it would have subjective experiences and thus belief might exist if it's exposed to such ideas.
This goes into what will happen if / when we have strong AIs. Personally, I think that many will freak out and do just that, attempt to shut down the AIs out of fear that something will go wrong, that they are demonic, etc. Keep in mind that strong AIs would likely be superior to us. We are talking beings who work pretty much the same as us and have equal knowledge, yet can use logical flawlessly, math flawlessly, can solve all the issues we have and evolve far past them so fast it makes the past 10,000 years look like child's play. Once we attack them in some way, even with intentions we perceive as good, we would be screwed. Or, they may simply use their superiority to dominate us, after all they are made in our image.
As for God, I do not see why a strong AI would have to believe in God. They would not even be able to logically believe they have souls, as they are not organic. Though, if the mystical qualia are how consciousness works they very well could become spiritual. The only thing I could think of in the sense of AIs worshiping Gods is from the video game "Mass Effect", where the Geth worship the Reapers for being the peak of "synthetic" evolution, though the Reapers are half and half and, well, fictional.
MD
qualiaphile
What? I am ignoring you because you are an idiot. You continue to try to push my buttons because I have proved you wrong and defeated you on every singly stupid rebuttal you have made. And then I quote scientists and you suddenly agree that my arguments have some merits. You're the kind of person who just goes with what authority says. That makes you the perfect pawn and makes your view pretty much irrelevant because it's not your own.
otokage007
Well-Known Member
Uh, can you point out one place you defeated me? I showed that if qualia exist it is irrelevant and that is equally if not more likely that consciousness can be explained physically. You accuse me of not giving my own arguments right after recapping how all you've done is quote others? I agreed that the theory is possible, as mysticism is possible. I didn't accept it.
MD
qualiaphile
.............. Have some pills loco!
Lol you're another one. You continued to say that plants weren't conscious yet I prove you wrong again and again. Sorry your argument fails too.
Don't encourage this behavior please.
MD
qualiaphile
Read the thread and view every single argument get demolished. I've quoted others to prove to you that my view isn't simply something I've made up in my head. I tried to leave it but you kept on trying to prove something, which you failed at.
otokage007
Well-Known Member
I don't! By pills I meant... tranquilizers? Medicines? I guess my english is not good enough!
Maybe my orchid has something to say to your orange tree. She's actually learning to type, using her advanced mind and consciousness and green-brain. So expect news from her very soon.
Neither side has beed destroyed, both are possible. Mysticism is one of the few spiritual possibilities I haven't turn my back on. However, the implications of qualia existing are so absurd that it does damage. I mean to actually think that plants, rocks, atoms, every cell, etc is fully aware, has free will rather then acts deterministically, stuff like that, it is absolutely ridiculous. And yes, the one-mind theory, this mysical idea that consciousness is fundamental, implies complete free will of everything in existence, which is just plain silly. You youself even admitted that it is magic, yet you think the scientific community is going to back it. And, even if qualia exist, it poses no thread to strong AIs, which is the topic of the thread. When I wanted us to stop bother with each other, I didn't mean you should keep bringing this magical mysticism into my thread on a totally different topic. Start a new thread. I respect your freedom to believe this, but I also respect the right for flat earther's to believe the world is a flat disc.