As a Mystic, do You View the Ego as the Main Impediment to Enlightenment?

[crossfire]

I think we have no way of escaping what our ego defines as spiritual advancement -- we speak as though we are one thing, but really we are a choir of selves which like various ideas. For mystics, I would imagine the hard-line rational self as a tinier voice but still has input; that input will not negate the results one experiences. However, our brains like coherent understanding and rarely accept the input we don't desire.

Personally, I find the word enlightenment troubling... People assume they are enlightened because they've reached some sort of inner peace, but if it were only that easy... All of the criteria one could use to determine whether they have reached that state are merely subjective opinions at best. In essence, most people are merely pandering to their confirmation biases. So the real question is are they enlightened or do they just think they are?

Thinking that you know closes your mind. Knowing that you don't know is what opens you up for mystical experiences. I hope that helps.

 

[Mindmaster]

Thinking that you know closes your mind. Knowing that you don't know is what opens you up for mystical experiences. I hope that helps.

For me, it just understanding that there no way to experience these things outside the box (aka the human mind) - but, I don't mistake that box for the material I am trying to grasp. It's like defining matter via tautological descriptions of space time. In many cases the "truth you find" and it's relative negation can be argued to be truth. In this case the existence of the matter would be inferred by the other associated properties, but the matter itself is a ghost - we can argue that it doesn't really exist it is just a convenient box for our descriptions.

Personally, I try to keep a balanced view of these things because it's possible to fall prey to ones initial understanding and "make it real" -- this is what I feel is the hardest part of mystical work; steering clear of what basically amounts to hypnotizing yourself into believing something.

 

[Windwalker]

I think we have no way of escaping what our ego defines as spiritual advancement -- we speak as though we are one thing, but really we are a choir of selves which like various ideas

There's an understanding that helps understand the role of what we think about things and spiritual experience. I refer to what's known as the Wiber-Combs matrix which makes a distinction between states and stages. Stages or structures are our development stages and are permanent fixtures once they emerge in growth. States of consciousness are temporary and can occur at any stage of development. There is no requirement for earlier stages of growth in order to have higher states, but for stages of growth one must development through them and not skip stages as they build upon earlier structures laid down.

Here's why I brought that up. One will always interpret their state experiences within the structures of the stage of development. Notions of advancement are structures of understanding, whereas the experience itself transcends any structures, not being dependent upon them. Someone at a mythic stage of development, can have a full-out Satori experience of Enlightenment, but how they understand the nature and meaning of that is dependent on the interpretative structures of their developmental stage. The experience of Enlightenment as a state experience is identical to anyone at any stage of development. How is it translated into their understanding is dependent on their developed structures.

The ego is actually a structure of development. One can in fact temporarily move beyond ego in a state experience, a peak experience, but moving beyond being embedded in the ego (defined as the separate self) itself as a permanent structure is in fact a matter of growth. Meditation practices can in fact accelerate stages of growth by exposing one to these "transegoic" states. The more one recognizes the ego as the ego, the more one begins to disidentify with it and they learn to integrate it into the whole as a part of who they are, rather than the definition of who they are. This awareness then becomes a permanent, transegoic structure, beyond simply a prolonged state experience or a "plateau" experience. This is moving growth-wise into the transpersonal domains. This is reaching the self-actualized individual and beyond into cosmic consciousness itself as a permanent stage of growth, metamind, supermind, and so forth.

So all the long explanation to say it is in fact possible to move beyond the egoic operating system as the center of gravity of ones personal identity. Meditation and mystical states aide in this, but they are temporary states, not permanent acquisitions. To me when it comes to understanding what "Enlightenment" truly is, you have to take into account both states and stages. The stages are responsible for greater or fuller interpretive structures upon which states of higher consciousness may be understood and expressed. They are structures upon which we hang the ornaments of Spirit. So someone 2000 years ago having an Enlightenment experience, even though the Freedom experienced is the same, the fullness of the world it illuminates is considerable different. As I've heard it expressed, there is no Freer than Free, but there is a fuller experience and understanding of it in form. Two arms of Enlightenment, states and stages, East and West.

For mystics, I would imagine the hard-line rational self as a tinier voice but still has input; that input will not negate the results one experiences. However, our brains like coherent understanding and rarely accept the input we don't desire.

No, I don't agree with this. The rational is not a tinier voice. It is its own voice with its own insights that mystical awareness cannot offer. If someone gives preference to one over the other in all things, then you end up out of balance and your perspective lopsided and prejudiced. But to be clear the type of knowing one uses has to be appropriate for the thing you are investigating! You do not use mystical experience to understand structures of development or physics, or reading Hamlet even. Likewise you do not use the rational mind to understand God. But if you develop the rational mind to understand the world of objects, when you have mystical experiences they will help add a variable of perspective you would not have using only the rational. It takes what is known by the mind of reason and illuminates it with the understanding of Spirit. It doesn't override reason, it doesn't change the fact, but rather illuminates how the facts are interpreted and integrated into one's whole being, mind, body, and spirit.

In other words, these things are complementary to each other, not given the sole voice of authority over all things human. This is the problem of rationalist materialism escaping and understanding of the world and themselves through the interiors, and it is the problem of those who use religion to escape a knowledge of the world of the exteriors abusing faith to escape hard truths that challenge beliefs. It's the same problem just on opposite ends of the spectrum. A spiritual life is a balanced life.

Personally, I find the word enlightenment troubling... People assume they are enlightened because they've reached some sort of inner peace, but if it were only that easy...

I think if they say inner peace, an emotional state is what enlightenment is, that's really not a great understanding of it. I like the term radical Freedom better. What all that means would take some discussion.

All of the criteria one could use to determine whether they have reached that state are merely subjective opinions at best. In essence, most people are merely pandering to their confirmation biases. So the real question is are they enlightened or do they just think they are?

I would say if you experienced it, it's pretty unmistakable.

 

[mystic64]

I think we have no way of escaping what our ego defines as spiritual advancement -- we speak as though we are one thing, but really we are a choir of selves which like various ideas. For mystics, I would imagine the hard-line rational self as a tinier voice but still has input; that input will not negate the results one experiences. However, our brains like coherent understanding and rarely accept the input we don't desire.

Personally, I find the word enlightenment troubling... People assume they are enlightened because they've reached some sort of inner peace, but if it were only that easy... All of the criteria one could use to determine whether they have reached that state are merely subjective opinions at best. In essence, most people are merely pandering to their confirmation biases. So the real question is are they enlightened or do they just think they are?

Back on topic , "As a mystic do you view the "ego" as the main impediment to enlightenment?" "In essence, most people are merely pandering to their confirmation biases. So (because of this) are they enlightened or do they just think they are?" For mystics, I would imagine the hard-line rational self as a tinier voice but still has input; that input will not negate the results one experiences." Welcome to the Mystic DIR Mindmaster , All advanced mystics are Mind Masters and All mystics are Mind Masters in training. Why? Because they are all studying and playing in (for better or worse) the mind of God (so to speak). Now Mindmaster you as a non mystic have to question the validity of this experience and you have to do it within the rules of a DIR. Mindmaster everything that you have said in your above post fits this topic, it is just that it is worded wrong. And example of better wording: "I as a non mystic would think that the ego is the judge of what one experiences as a mystic." And that because of this, "How can one know that they are enlightened and do they just think that they are?" That Mindmaster is the "Million Dollar Question". And the other half of the question, "Is the "ego" the main impediment to enlightenment?" Because everything that you have said in the above post is a classic example of why the ego is the main impediment to enlightenment . "How do you know?" You can't ! Because as long as the "ego" is functional, you can not truly know. Which then brings us to, "How can a mystic explain to a person with a functional "ego" the wonderment that is enlightenment?" The first thing that they have to do is cause that person to begin to question the validity of their "ego", because that person's "ego" is that which is in the way. Welcome to the Mystic DIR with the understanding that folks that step into the Mystic DIR enter at their own risk because they are entering a group of folks that "play in and explore the mind of God" (so to speak). And just because one does not believe it, does not make it not real .

 

[mystic64]

For me, it just understanding that there no way to experience these things outside the box (aka the human mind) - but, I don't mistake that box for the material I am trying to grasp. It's like defining matter via tautological descriptions of space time. In many cases the "truth you find" and it's relative negation can be argued to be truth. In this case the existence of the matter would be inferred by the other associated properties, but the matter itself is a ghost - we can argue that it doesn't really exist it is just a convenient box for our descriptions.

Personally, I try to keep a balanced view of these things because it's possible to fall prey to ones initial understanding and "make it real" -- this is what I feel is the hardest part of mystical work; steering clear of what basically amounts to hypnotizing yourself into believing something.

How do you know Mindmaster whether or not that your "ego" is biasing your approach to understanding the mystic experience?

 

[Mindmaster]

How do you know Mindmaster whether or not that your "ego" is biasing your approach to understanding the mystic experience?

I think the only way you can "win" is to have no position... Neither seek, nor deny, simply absorb... Face the fact that from chaos there is apparent order, but that order is a stochastic interpretation of what truly is random and the possibilities remain infinite. The structures are merely patterns or trends, and again just secondary manifestations...

 

[YmirGF]

All advanced mystics are Mind Masters and All mystics are Mind Masters in training.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't get too carried away with this kind of thinking. I'm not out to "master" anything.

Why? Because they are all studying and playing in (for better or worse) the mind of God (so to speak).

It might be more appropriate to describe your average garden gnome mystic as being like an adventurer exploring uncharted territory. Ideas of god lose their appeal all too quickly once one heads down the rabbit hole of inner reality.

Because everything that you have said in the above post is a classic example of why the ego is the main impediment to enlightenment . "How do you know?" You can't ! Because as long as the "ego" is functional, you can not truly know.

Oh, poppycock. I'd suggest that without a functioning ego the individual would have no ability to interpret their experience.

Which then brings us to, "How can a mystic explain to a person with a functional "ego" the wonderment that is enlightenment?" The first thing that they have to do is cause that person to begin to question the validity of their "ego", because that person's "ego" is that which is in the way.

Over-identtification with ego as self can slow the individual down, that much is true, but to generalize that the ego is what is holding folks back is a bit disingenuous. Again, I'm not a huge supporter of the concept of so-called "enlightenment" but there are other ways to appeal to that spark within others than to bludgeon them over the head and precipitating an identity crisis. It's a bit like blaming the audience for the shortfcomings of the message. I could be a complete idiot, and I do acknowledge that, but I prefer to appeal to peoples emotional side (I'm talking about "in person" rather than online). My thinking is that if you can get folks to feel the warmth of that incredible spark within themselves it will save so much confusion and arguing over semantics.

Welcome to the Mystic DIR with the understanding that folks that step into the Mystic DIR enter at their own risk

Likewise, budding misfits, errr, sorry, mystics... should also tread softly.... (TRIGGER ALERT: The use of the word "misfit" was purely meant as an attempt at levity and is not intended as a barb to anyone. It just strikes my funny-bone because most mystics are, generally speaking, misfits in the cultures they find themselves in.)

because they are entering a group of folks that "play in and explore the mind of God" (so to speak). And just because one does not believe it, does not make it not real .

 

[Windwalker]

Oh, poppycock. I'd suggest that without a functioning ego the individual would have no ability to interpret their experience.

One of the things to realize is that a human without an ego is an infant. The mind on an infant in oceanic bliss is hardly comparable to the mind of a mystic in a state of enlightened awareness. To "get rid of the ego", is like reducing yourself to an infant. Retro-romantics may believe this is desirable, but it's a misguided view as no one can unbake the cake once it's baked. What you do is grow beyond simple identification with it, not get rid of it.

 

[YmirGF]

One of the things to realize is that a human without an ego is an infant. The mind on an infant in oceanic bliss is hardly comparable to the mind of a mystic in a state of enlightened awareness. To "get rid of the ego", is like reducing yourself to an infant. Retro-romantics may believe this is desirable, but it's a misguided view as no one can unbake the cake once it's baked. What you do is grow beyond simple identification with it, not get rid of it.

Thank you. I was just scanning my drivel written earlier when it occurred to me that EVEN during the mystical experience touted as "Oneness" the ego is still present, albeit in the background, as one distinctly senses THEIR connection with "everything else". Likewise, during moments where subject and object seemingly merge, the individual never loses their sense of being though their sense of identity may increase significantly.

 

[Vouthon]

Thank you. I was just scanning my drivel written earlier when it occurred to me that EVEN during the mystical experience touted as "Oneness" the ego is still present, albeit in the background, as one distinctly senses THEIR connection with "everything else". Likewise, during moments where subject and object seemingly merge, the individual never loses their sense of being though their sense of identity may increase significantly.

Indeed, hence why St. Bernard of Clairvaux (I know, here I go again, my quoting obsession):

"...To reach this state is to become deified. As a drop of water poured into wine loses itself, and takes the color and savor of wine; or as a bar of iron, heated red-hot, becomes like fire itself, forgetting its own nature; or as the air, radiant with sun-beams, seems not so much to be illuminated as to be light itself; so in the saints all human affections melt away by some unspeakable transmutation into the will of God. For how could God be all in all, if anything merely human remained in man? The substance will endure, but in another beauty, a higher power, a greater glory..."

- St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090 – August 21 1153), abbot of Clairvaux
​

And Meister Eckhart's favourite disciple Blessed Henry Suso:

"...Without a doubt it happens that, when the good and loyal servant is led into the joy of his Lord, he becomes drunk from the limitless overabundance of God's house. What happens to a drunken man happens to him, though it cannot really be described, that he so forgets his self that he is not at all his self and consequently has got rid of his self completely and lost himself entirely in God, becoming one spirit in all ways with him, just as a small drop of water does which has been dropped into a large amount of wine. Just as the drop of water loses itself, drawing the taste and colour of the wine to and into itself, so it happens that those who are in full possession of blessedness lose all human desires in an inexpressible manner, and they ebb away from themselves and are immersed completely in the divine will. Otherwise, if something of the individual were to remain of which he or she were not completely emptied, scripture could not be true in stating that God shall become all things in all things. Certainly one's being remains, but in a different form, in a different resplendence, and in a different power. This is all the result of total detachment from self..."

- Blessed Henry Suso (1300 – 1366)​

You have just expressed a very important point that scholars often say distinguishes Christian and Sufi mysticism (among others) from the Advaita understanding of the mystical experience, despite their close similarities and affinities IMHO.

 

[mystic64]

. Certainly one's being remains, but in a different form, in a different resplendence, and in a different power."
What Meister Eckhart is saying perfectly dovetails my experience. And "This is all that result of total detachment from self..." What you become is the pure observer and you do not attempt to define the "observed", you allow the "observed" to define itself. Which the "observed" does quite nicely .

 

[mystic64]

Personally speaking, I wouldn't get too carried away with this kind of thinking. I'm not out to "master" anything.

It might be more appropriate to describe your average garden gnome mystic as being like an adventurer exploring uncharted territory. Ideas of god lose their appeal all too quickly once one heads down the rabbit hole of inner reality.

Oh, poppycock. I'd suggest that without a functioning ego the individual would have no ability to interpret their experience.

Over-identtification with ego as self can slow the individual down, that much is true, but to generalize that the ego is what is holding folks back is a bit disingenuous. Again, I'm not a huge supporter of the concept of so-called "enlightenment" but there are other ways to appeal to that spark within others than to bludgeon them over the head and precipitating an identity crisis. It's a bit like blaming the audience for the shortfcomings of the message. I could be a complete idiot, and I do acknowledge that, but I prefer to appeal to peoples emotional side (I'm talking about "in person" rather than online). My thinking is that if you can get folks to feel the warmth of that incredible spark within themselves it will save so much confusion and arguing over semantics.

Likewise, budding misfits, errr, sorry, mystics... should also tread softly.... (TRIGGER ALERT: The use of the word "misfit" was purely meant as an attempt at levity and is not intended as a barb to anyone. It just strikes my funny-bone because most mystics are, generally speaking, misfits in the cultures they find themselves in.)

The mind master part of things is a side effect and not a goal. And yes true "budding mystics" should also tread softly because they are ususally filled with excitement and folks similar to you can destroy that excitement. Which I consider sad. And "no" you are not an idiot, complete or otherwise and you are right most mystics are, generally speaking, misfits in the cultures they find themselves in. There is no getting around that.

"Without a functioning ego the individual would have no ability to interpret their experience." If you were an experienced mystic you would understand that you do not interpret the experience, the exprience inerprets you. In a "non consceptual" workings mind processing reality the processing speed of one's mind is so fast that self and relationships to self, experiences or otherwise, cease to exist. In a "conceptual" workings mind processing reality everything is slowed down so that the ego has time to interpret and understand the experience. And if the ego does not get this time, it then experiences a breakdown. YmirGF, you are not wrong ! The confusion comes when one does not realize that there are two different mind processing realities. When you step through the third Dharma Seal you go from a "conceptual" workings mind processing reality to a "non conseptual" workings mind processing reality. And for some reason folks are calling this "non conceptual" workings mind processing reality "Enlightenment" .

 

[mystic64]

I think the only way you can "win" is to have no position... Neither seek, nor deny, simply absorb... Face the fact that from chaos there is apparent order, but that order is a stochastic interpretation of what truly is random and the possibilities remain infinite. The structures are merely patterns or trends, and again just secondary manifestations...

But Mindmaster , what about cheating?! And having no position is a cop out when one is playing the game in a consceptual workings mind reality. Face the fact?! I don't think so Mindmaster ! Absolutely not. There is not any fact to what you are saying. There is only two percent creativity (the chaos generating potential) in Creation, the rest is all set pattern. I like you exist in a highly creative (chaos fueled) mind reality. And disrupting set pattern ( having a chaos generator type personality) is fun, I admit it. But at the same time to me the fun is in disrupting other chaos generators that are attempting to disrupt the set pattern security of other folks. Especally if they are "gifted chaos generators". I am not the fastest gun in the west, but I do enjoy the challenge and when I get my tush kicked I learn from it and get better at it. And because I am an experienced advanced mystic I can "cheat" ! Sometimes things are just way to much fun. But at the sametime, sometimes they aren't .

 

[Windwalker]

"Without a functioning ego the individual would have no ability to interpret their experience." If you were an experienced mystic you would understand that you do not interpret the experience, the exprience inerprets you.

Only the conceptual mind is capable of interpretations. Experiences do not interpret. They don't have brains. This is like saying "running runs". It's nonsense.

Here's the thing about experiences and interpretations you don't see to be aware of. Experiences just happen, and they are just raw experiences without any meaning or understanding inherent to them. What happens at the moment of an experience is the human mind then almost instantly breaks the experience into two parts; object and subject. The question is asked "What was that?" (objective), and "What does it mean?" (subjective). Example, you hear a loud bang. The experience is sound hitting the ear. The mind asks what was the source (objective), and then asks am I in danger (subjective). That's an interpretation instantly performed by the mind, so fast you aren't even aware of the process. It's just the way reality is understood by you without awareness of the process.

BTW, I'd be careful about touting oneself as an "advanced mystic". I'm a believer in the saying that the more one knows the more one knows they don't know. I tend to agree with YmirGF that "Enlightenment" is not all that meaningful an idea. I see "enlightenment" is not this "end goal" you reach where everything is resolved and you have "arrived". Not at all in fact! I used to imagine this as many do. Rather now I see it as an loop of an infinite number of finite points that we go around and around on in an infinitely ascending and descending spiral all within the Eternal now. "Enlightenment" is just the beginning rather than the end. It's more the starting point, really. God is not a static point you reach. God is what you already are and are becoming.

In a "non consceptual" workings mind processing reality the processing speed of one's mind is so fast that self and relationships to self, experiences or otherwise, cease to exist. In a "conceptual" workings mind processing reality everything is slowed down so that the ego has time to interpret and understand the experience. And if the ego does not get this time, it then experiences a breakdown. YmirGF, you are not wrong !

What you are really describing sound to me like the unconscious and subconscious minds. One of the first things you discover as you begin to be able to enter into meditative states is how the unconscious mind speaks to the conscious mind, sharing its information with you, so to speak, because you have quieted the active "thinking" mind, the discursive dialog of mental objects, the texts of the self we have written an process like a script in our brains. The subconscious comes through in non-linguist symbols. This is where we begin to encounter dream-like imagery, subtle state experiences. Much of the information is the processing that happens all the time, all day, every day in our minds, but we aren't normally quite enough to listen directly.

This is really the goal of psychotherapy. To open to and listen to that understanding of ourselves we have going on in there all the time, but we either choose to not listen to, bury and suppress, or are unable to know how to fit within our current models of reality and self the mental objects we have constructed in our linguist minds allow us to see. They are constantly speaking, but we are unable or unwilling to listen and hear their messages to us. Meditation is the first step to opening to these hidden parts of ourselves, actively opening dialog, and the result is an enormous healing of the individual, and a significant increase in the intuitive mind, the psychic mind.

But that's not all. There is also the emergent unconscious, the inherent potentials in all forms which speaks in archetypal imagery. This is where YmirGF and I have a difference of opinion, one day I wish to explore further with him (nudge, nudge). This is to me a very, very important thing to acknowledge and bring forth as points of meditative focus. These are the forms of the very subtle, the forms of deities, bodhisattvas, devas and devatas. These open oneself to Self, and the benefit of this "2nd person" perspective, is that the ego-self is faced and dealt with directly, allowing one to not hide it are deny it which only results in further repression of parts of our self, rather than an integration and transcendence, which I feel is necessary for fully integrated enlightened mind.

To expand on this last point I'll quote from my favorite philosopher dealing with these areas:

But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. John Blofeld quotes Edward Conze on the Vajrayana Buddhist viewpoint: " 'It is the emptiness of everything which allows the identification to take place - the emptiness [which means "transcendental openness" or "nonobstruction"] which is in us coming together with the emptiness which is the deity. By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate' ". At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."


~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85​

The confusion comes when one does not realize that there are two different mind processing realities. When you step through the third Dharma Seal you go from a "conceptual" workings mind processing reality to a "non conseptual" workings mind processing reality. And for some reason folks are calling this "non conceptual" workings mind processing reality "Enlightenment" .

I think you are confusing the 3rd Dharma door with the things I just described which are really just your conscious and subconscious minds, the verbal and non-verbal mind, linguistic and symbolic, left hippocampus and right hippocampus. What you seem to be describing is just moving to the Witness state. I don't consider the Witness state itself to be enlightenment.

 

[YmirGF]

The mind master part of things is a side effect and not a goal. And yes true "budding mystics" should also tread softly because they are ususally filled with excitement and folks similar to you can destroy that excitement. Which I consider sad. And "no" you are not an idiot, complete or otherwise and you are right most mystics are, generally speaking, misfits in the cultures they find themselves in. There is no getting around that.

Excitement that is so easily destroyed ain't much of an excitement to begin with. Look, I do understand the enthusiasm. I really do, but that enthusiasm opens the fledgling mystic to all sorts of pitfalls due to their inability to express things that they feel so very deeply. I well remember being totally baffled that people didn't understand what I was talking about so many years ago. It took awhile to understand that my unbridled enthusiasm did not match my ability to communicate my experiences. So, I stopped talking about it all ... for about 25 years... Now, though still enthusiastic, I can contain that enthusiasm to phrase things in ways that might actually peak the interest of my intended audience.

"Without a functioning ego the individual would have no ability to interpret their experience." If you were an experienced mystic you would understand that you do not interpret the experience, the exprience inerprets you. In a "non consceptual" workings mind processing reality the processing speed of one's mind is so fast that self and relationships to self, experiences or otherwise, cease to exist.

I'm certainly aware of these gradations, if you will, though I would suggest that it's more like a pipe that can only take so much passing through it at one time. Another aspect of self contains the full experience and that experience trickles down into conscious mind in nice bite sized pieces for it to digest. The point is that both ends of the pipe are always in play, though it is true that the ordinary sense of self is somewhat eclipsed, a sense of self is never completely absent due to the nature of expanding consciousness.

A way I reasoned this out when I was quite young was I pretended, at first, that I had an inner video camera filming the events as they went, Live, as it were. It was only after awhile that I began to understand that part of me was entirely aware of these experiences and was always there to draw on. That helped to take the heat off trying to remember it all and digest it too fast, to gorge myself, if you like.

In a "conceptual" workings mind processing reality everything is slowed down so that the ego has time to interpret and understand the experience. And if the ego does not get this time, it then experiences a breakdown. YmirGF, you are not wrong ! The confusion comes when one does not realize that there are two different mind processing realities. When you step through the third Dharma Seal you go from a "conceptual" workings mind processing reality to a "non conseptual" workings mind processing reality. And for some reason folks are calling this "non conceptual" workings mind processing reality "Enlightenment" .

It appears we are saying similar things, albeit from different perspectives, as should be expected. I'm not crazy about the usage of "non-conceptual mind" however, as it is simply a different form - an expanded format - of conception. Likewise, I'm not crazy about the idea of so-called "Dharma Seals" but it would be a very boring world if we all saw things the same way.



In parting have a playful Dharma Seal

 

[Windwalker]

I'm certainly aware of these gradations, if you will, though I would suggest that it's more like a pipe that can only take so much passing through it at one time. Another aspect of self contains the full experience and that experience trickles down into conscious mind in nice bite sized pieces for it to digest. The point is that both ends of the pipe are always in play, though it is true that the ordinary sense of self is somewhat eclipsed, a sense of self is never completely absent due to the nature of expanding consciousness.

This is a really great description. I've actually struggled to find words to describe this (believe it or not ). What I notice is that in these states of openness, what is there is so great, so overwhelmingly desiring to come rushing in that you feel you cannot process it. You instinctively pull back, but the process becomes one of through being centered and calm of opening the valve enough you can take it in. This all becomes very difficult to describe for me. It's as if the entire ocean is yours and desires you, but you fear drowning as you swallow it whole. So yes, there are two ends of the pipe in play, as you say.

 

[YmirGF]

This is a really great description. I've actually struggled to find words to describe this (believe it or not ). What I notice is that in these states of openness, what is there is so great, so overwhelmingly desiring to come rushing in that you feel you cannot process it. You instinctively pull back, but the process becomes one of through being centered and calm of opening the valve enough you can take it in. This all becomes very difficult to describe for me. It's as if the entire ocean is yours and desires you, but you fear drowning as you swallow it whole. So yes, there are two ends of the pipe in play, as you say.

Thank you, WindyOne. It just strikes me that people have a strange tendency to forget about the ongoing expansion of consciousness. The ego benefits from this expansion in tremendous ways and none of them are particularly egotistical. I don't know how to put it, but when the ego no longer feels threatened and feels like it is a helper, a facilitator, a conduit, whatever, it makes it happy and you end up with a genuinely happy family of the psyche. I think of it as the "civilization" of the psyche wherein all the parts of being are civil to each other and on friendly speaking terms.

 

[Orbit]

I get the bit about letting go of thoughts, but can you say how you experience the "connection".

I think that requires its own thread, actually....

 

[crossfire]

Thank you, WindyOne. It just strikes me that people have a strange tendency to forget about the ongoing expansion of consciousness. The ego benefits from this expansion in tremendous ways and none of them are particularly egotistical. I don't know how to put it, but when the ego no longer feels threatened and feels like it is a helper, a facilitator, a conduit, whatever, it makes it happy and you end up with a genuinely happy family of the psyche. I think of it as the "civilization" of the psyche wherein all the parts of being are civil to each other and on friendly speaking terms.

The expansion of consciousness you speak of also can make any religious paradigm seem a little tight after a while--it needs to grow with consciousness, as well, imo.

edit to add: Ah-ha! That's why your avatar is wearing spandex!

 

[Windwalker]

Thank you, WindyOne. It just strikes me that people have a strange tendency to forget about the ongoing expansion of consciousness. The ego benefits from this expansion in tremendous ways and none of them are particularly egotistical. I don't know how to put it, but when the ego no longer feels threatened and feels like it is a helper, a facilitator, a conduit, whatever, it makes it happy and you end up with a genuinely happy family of the psyche. I think of it as the "civilization" of the psyche wherein all the parts of being are civil to each other and on friendly speaking terms.

That's a great way to put it. As I touched on in my "windy" response earlier about the first things that happen is uncovering the hidden stuff in our subconscious minds, that part of it is to first begin to make ourselves whole. My discovery was that I had no idea there was all that stuff down there that was affecting me, things through culture, experiences, etc, that we are not at peace with yet aren't consciously aware of. A lot of that comes out where you get to see it and learn to accept it as part of yourself without the fears that normally come with junk from the subconscious. You first become whole, and then start taking that forward in this higher state of being.

One thing that comes to mind, which will turn this into another windy post , the sense of profound Love that hits us, that Ocean I mentioned that wishes to flood our whole being, the tears that my came, the joy, etc, can be understood as our egos, which normally is being choked by us through all manner of obstacles we impose upon it, is a response of relief of us letting it all go. It's a response of our egos saying "THANK YOU!! OH, THANK YOU! THANK YOU!".

One of these things that is so ironic about this process of Awakening, is that rather than being "other" to the world, it's actually awakening to being normal! It's the "normal" state that is in fact anything but normal. "Enlightenment" is finally becoming who we are. It's bring it all together, a whole happy family of the psyche, as you put so well. These moments of profound release, of ecstasy, tears of joy, tears of release, are only the letting go and final acceptance of the absolute Beauty that is who we are, that is who we all are, that is the nature of existence itself. We become ourselves.