• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Ask a Materialist...

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
hey everyone, :)

I thought I might have another go at one of these interview threads. I realise "materialism" comes up alot in debates (and ussually refered to in a negative way) so it might be worth asking a few questions. It's worth noting that I'm coming from the "dialectical materialist" view which is not necessarily reflective of all materialists but it should still be interesting.

Ask away!
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why does materialism make sense to you?

Materialism makes "sense" in so far as it deals with things that we can directly sense and observe. It seeks explanations based on what we already know about nature rather than appealing to the supernatural as a "god of the gap". As the objective world is considered the source of our knowledge, it rejects the view that there is anything "beyond, above or behind" the material world as it exists and so rules out supernatural phenemena as an illusion from highly abstract thinking when it conflicts with observation.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
. As the objective world is considered the source of our knowledge, it rejects the view that there is anything "beyond, above or behind" the material world as it exists and so rules out supernatural phenemena as an illusion from highly abstract thinking when it conflicts with observation.
How do you explain people returning from NDE's with knowledge they could not reasonably have learned through normal channels; or childhood reincarnation memories of verifiable facts they could not reasonably have known through normal means; mediums giving specific information they could not reasonably have known through normal channels, etc., et.. These are things that caused me to abandon 'materialism'. Something dramatic and 'more' does seem to exist. Do you propose inside the materialist box explanation for these things; luck, fraud, overhearing, etc.. Do you wish these type of claims would just go away?

I tend to think materialists talk about observation but perhaps are resistant to observations outside of their comfort zone?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How do you explain people returning from NDE's with knowledge they could not reasonably have learned through normal channels; or childhood reincarnation memories of verifiable facts they could not reasonably have known through normal means; mediums giving specific information they could not reasonably have known through normal channels, etc., et.. These are things that caused me to abandon 'materialism'. Something dramatic and 'more' does seem to exist.

I don't have an explanation for people returning from Near-Death experiences with knowledge. I could use the word "co-incidence" but I'm fairly certain that will not be a satisfactory answer. :D

Do you propose inside the materialist box explanation for these things; luck, fraud, overhearing, etc.. Do you wish these type of claims would just go away?

Based on the "uniformity of nature" (that nature obeys the same physical laws) it is assumed that there is a material explanation for these things. I don't think it is unreasonable that many phenemeona which go unexplained today may in future have a "natural" explanation. By and large though, a fair amount of it may be projecting human qualitities on to natural processes as if something possesses a "mind" or "consciousness" without having physical form (e.g. ghosts, the soul, etc). Humans in our eagerness to understand the natural world try to draw based on something familiar. Materialism tries to start from what we know based not on familiaty but on knowledge. I will concede that as a materialist I can't claim to know everything only that nothing is intrinsically unknowable (i.e. reject a strong agnostic position).

I tend to think materialists talk about observation but perhaps are resistant to observations outside of their comfort zone?

I'm happy to concede that point. Materialists are human and as we have a limited amount of time, we focus our attention on things we "want" to know, so yes, there are areas which we neglect and need to be look into more throughly to evaluate our own beliefs.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Did you ever read Anti-Dühring and Materialism and Empirio-Criticism? If so, what were your thoughts about them?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Did you ever read Anti-Dühring and Materialism and Empirio-Criticism? If so, what were your thoughts about them?

No, (not more than a breif look anyway) but the books I have read have quoted them extensively. Lenin's attempt to redefine matter and materialism in Materialism and Empirio-Criticism was in response to the discoveries in physics in the early twenieth century. This was in response to cliams of the "disappearence of matter" in which atoms where said to be "almost nothing" as well as the idea of the conversion of matter in to energy with Einstein.

Engel's Anti-During is less familiar, but will have dealt with similar issues (I checked the Marxists internet archieve and there are chapters on "Time and Space" and Cosmology which I may get round to reading some time). Materialism poses philosophical problems with an understanding of the universe, time and space as finite because it infers creation.

These disputes were re-occuring in Soviet physics, such as whether Big Bang Cosmology is simply creationism in a secular guise or whether Quantum indeterminism is a projection of free will onto sub-atomic particles, and have been of interest because of how materialism affects the understanding of science. Its also just very intresting because we can see how Marxist materialism owes much to the "Mechanistic" materialism of Issac Newton's day and struggled to incorporate Einstein's theory of Relativity in to its worldview, and how that relates to the "cosmological argument" for god, creationism and materialist-atheism. The Soviets essentially were desperate to cling to a deterministic view of the universe and very much in the spirit of Einstein's quote "god doesn't play dice" (even if they'd object to the "god" part). it underlines how Science is still dependent on theories of knowledge in recognising and dealing with philosophical problems. it's easily one of the most fascinating aspects of materialism but also the most hard for me to understand (given the fact I don't have a background in the Natural Sciences, especially Quantum Mechanics).

[Edit: a direct answer to you question is that they ask important questions about the nature of the universe which I am not scientifically qualified to answer but would really like to. :D]
 
Last edited:

Subhankar Zac

Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
There are Christian pastors that preaches a non materialist gospel but owns two houses in the Hamptons.
There are Hindus who preach the Gita's message of detachment from material entanglement but want huge temple complexes bigger than the Vatican chapel.
There are Buddhists that pray at Wat Po.

So, not sure how can most people question you. Materialism in excess isn't for me, yet not for me to judge.
 

Subhankar Zac

Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
There are Christian pastors that preaches a non materialist gospel but owns two houses in the Hamptons.
There are Hindus who preach the Gita's message of detachment from material entanglement but want huge temple complexes bigger than the Vatican chapel.
There are Buddhists that pray at Wat Po.

So, not sure how can most people question you. Materialism in excess isn't for me, yet not for me to judge.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There are Christian pastors that preaches a non materialist gospel but owns two houses in the Hamptons.
There are Hindus who preach the Gita's message of detachment from material entanglement but want huge temple complexes bigger than the Vatican chapel.
There are Buddhists that pray at Wat Po.

So, not sure how can most people question you. Materialism in excess isn't for me, yet not for me to judge.

Materialism is a philosophical position that "that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are results of material interactions." Since the Middle Ages however, it's also been used to refer to Economic Materialism based on characterising philosophical materialism as a rejection of the divine and the supernatural in favour of the physical (and therefore seeking physical gratification through the sins such as lust, greed, envy, etc.)
 

Subhankar Zac

Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
Materialism is a philosophical position that "that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are results of material interactions." Since the Middle Ages however, it's also been used to refer to Economic Materialism based on characterising philosophical materialism as a rejection of the divine and the supernatural in favour of the physical (and therefore seeking physical gratification through the sins such as lust, greed, envy, etc.)


I know that. But I m saying that many those who preach against materialism after often more materialistic and at times dangerously greedy.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
hey everyone, :)

I thought I might have another go at one of these interview threads. I realise "materialism" comes up alot in debates (and ussually refered to in a negative way) so it might be worth asking a few questions. It's worth noting that I'm coming from the "dialectical materialist" view which is not necessarily reflective of all materialists but it should still be interesting.

Ask away!

Although I was more or less a materialist, I used to engage in huge debates with my father who also was a strong votary of dialectical materialism. I used to argue that dialectical materialism failed to take into account the human factors. Still I continued to be a materialist. But ironically, the day my father died on my arms, a question arose "Where did that 'I' go?" Is not a similar 'I' awareness running through all? What was that?

I get a lot of glib answers and also ridicule in response to this question. But I get no satisfactory materialistic answer. For a materialist, nature is equivalent of God. Nothing more. Nature, through evolution has given birth to the 'I'.

But then, if my awareness was a result of a mechanistic process then the awareness was pre-determined by that process and was actually pretty much useless.

Sorry, I have no questions for you. My intention was to share my view.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Based on the "uniformity of nature" (that nature obeys the same physical laws) it is assumed that there is a material explanation for these things. I don't think it is unreasonable that many phenemeona which go unexplained today may in future have a "natural" explanation.
I agree that everything does have a 'natural' explanation but I would argue that there are dramatically important things about nature that current western science doesn't know yet (i.e. paranormal; which is the normal not yet understood). To quote a scientist: If we ignore the data that doesn't fit, then the rest of the data fits quite nicely.
By and large though, a fair amount of it may be projecting human qualitities on to natural processes as if something possesses a "mind" or "consciousness" without having physical form (e.g. ghosts, the soul, etc). Humans in our eagerness to understand the natural world try to draw based on something familiar. Materialism tries to start from what we know based not on familiaty but on knowledge.
I think the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition does understand these things beyond the level of western science and presents a detailed comprehensive worldview in which these paranormal things are part and parcel of an expanded material world.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Although I was more or less a materialist, I used to engage in huge debates with my father who also was a strong votary of dialectical materialism. I used to argue that dialectical materialism failed to take into account the human factors. Still I continued to be a materialist. But ironically, the day my father died on my arms, a question arose "Where did that 'I' go?" Is not a similar 'I' awareness running through all? What was that?

I get a lot of glib answers and also ridicule in response to this question. But I get no satisfactory materialistic answer. For a materialist, nature is equivalent of God. Nothing more. Nature, through evolution has given birth to the 'I'.

But then, if my awareness was a result of a mechanistic process then the awareness was pre-determined by that process and was actually pretty much useless.

Sorry, I have no questions for you. My intention was to share my view.

If I said that that question was the one that kept coming back, I think you'd understand. The essential problem is that man is psychologically predisposed to pleasure and hedonism, and yet death- and the pain and suffering it causes- are inevitable. We have some degree of control over "when" we die, but the ultimate reality is that we do not choose if we die. With that in mind, it is understandable why people would want to believe in an afterlife.

The question that can be asked of course is how do we "know" what it is like to die? We can describe it perhaps, but we don't know what it means to die and how it "feels". So the fear of death, in this respect is partly irrational because it is a fear that is built on our ignorance. the fear of death is related to the belief that man has a soul or consciousness and that with physical death, the "I" dies with them. It is a sense that the self has utterly ceased to exist. But the problem is that our response to death is not based on reality but is ideological. If you think about how someone who believes in the afterlife has the courage to face their own death, it is clear that the fear of death is not inevitable or necessarily a feature of "the human condition". it is a response to specific beliefs about death regardless of the actual experience of death itself.

Death can be hard to deal with because of egotism and individualism; when we place such a high value on ourselves, death means the negation of all values. It leads to a sense of nihilism, in which the death of individual consciousness means the end of pleasure as a source for right and wrong or the meaning of life. Religions have te advtange of appealing to a higher power which "transcends" our own mortality and individual suffering. A "materialist" alternative is seeking transcendence of our individual mortality and suffering through collectivism and humanism. it is by treating "humanity" as a higher power which transcends our individual suffering that we can find comfort and achieve a physical eqivilent to immortality. we can't live forever, but by working for the benifit of humanity, the consequences of our own individual existence can be connected to the great stream of human history and feel rooted in the knowledge that we are both the product of countless generations before us and that will follow. I still get "the fear" but it's not so much for my own individual demise but for the existential threats against mankind such as nuclear war or climate change. Those things still scare me because it would "kill" the higher power I "belong" to so its necessary to struggle against those existential risks for mankind, to preserve human life and ensure that each generation inherits a world better than when we inherited it.

If I sought personal immortality by imprinting myself on people's memories, the intresting thing is that in perhaps 100 years or even 1000 years, nobody will remember my name. There probably won't even be a picture of me left. Even the "great" figures in history are only half-remembered. the further away they are in time, the less evidence there is about them, the more inaccurate our understanding. We are still debating Jesus after 2000 years but only because he was a major religious figure. even then we can't say we "know" that much about him in the same way we would experience meeting him in person or whether the bible is a historically accurate record of his thoughts and actions.

It strikes me that even in that very "short" space of historical time all trace of who I was will have dissapeared, but "my" humanity will remain as long as "humanity" remains as the consequences of my lifetime- even in obscurity and anonmyity- continue to have an effect through each generation. My understanding is that this is a materialist view as you can find hints of it in Ludwig Fuerebach's Atheism and Humanism, and in the "God-builders" in Marxism who- believing that you cannot simply "abolish" religion- must necessarily find answers to the big existential questions. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on answers to the afterlife, but that sort of humanism is very difficult, if only because self-awareness kicks in and you know that collectivism can give you meaning and purpose but not immortality.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I agree that everything does have a 'natural' explanation but I would argue that there are dramatically important things about nature that current western science doesn't know yet (i.e. paranormal; which is the normal not yet understood). To quote a scientist: If we ignore the data that doesn't fit, then the rest of the data fits quite nicely.

I can plausibly come up with a "naturalistic" interpretation of such phenemenoa, but I can't ignore the facts which lead to those conclusions. It's just not scientific. It's why I have to resist the bigot in my head that doesn't want to listen. it would be easier if it went away but that's not going to solve anything is it? :D
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
How do you explain people returning from NDE's with knowledge they could not reasonably have learned through normal channels; or childhood reincarnation memories of verifiable facts they could not reasonably have known through normal means; mediums giving specific information they could not reasonably have known through normal channels, etc., et.. These are things that caused me to abandon 'materialism'. Something dramatic and 'more' does seem to exist. Do you propose inside the materialist box explanation for these things; luck, fraud, overhearing, etc.. Do you wish these type of claims would just go away?

I tend to think materialists talk about observation but perhaps are resistant to observations outside of their comfort zone?
You can be a materialist and believe in an afterlife. I suppose I'm a materialist of a sort, too, since I'm not a substance dualist.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I can plausibly come up with a "naturalistic" interpretation of such phenemenoa, but I can't ignore the facts which lead to those conclusions. It's just not scientific. It's why I have to resist the bigot in my head that doesn't want to listen. it would be easier if it went away but that's not going to solve anything is it? :D
I'm not clear on the 'It's just not scientific' sentence above. To me science in this sense starts with observation. Nothing that happens can not be considered with a scientific mindset. I just think people like to reason within a box with known borders but the universe is something more complicated than we can get our heads around.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm not clear on the 'It's just not scientific' sentence above. To me science in this sense starts with observation. Nothing that happens can not be considered with a scientific mindset. I just think people like to reason within a box with known borders but the universe is something more complicated than we can get our heads around.

i.e. selectively using evidence to suit a theory is not scientific.
 
Top