Bishka
Veteran Member
No, but I have attended the one in Manti, Utah which is quite similar. Have you attended it?
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Ask a Mormon! (Part Two)
- Thread starter Bishka
- Start date
No, but I have attended the one in Manti, Utah which is quite similar. Have you attended it?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I have, but it was about a gazillion years ago when I was a teenager. I'm not big into pageants of any kind, so it probably didn't impress me quite the way it does a lot of members of the Church.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Two things just occurred to me, as I was reading your question a second time. Since they have not been mentioned before, I'll just mention them now. I don't know whether you'll see them or not, since your post is a few days old now.
First, I hear Protestants who believe in Sola Scriptura argue this point fairly regularly, but it's the first time I've ever heard a Catholic come up with it. The Catholic Church relies on Holy Tradition for many of its doctrines. Most of the Marian doctrines are not found in the Bible, but are said by Catholics to be true because they are a part of the traditional beliefs of the early Church fathers. In this respect, Catholics and Mormons are alike. Neither of our churches believes that all doctrine must be spelled out in the Bible.
Second, as Aqualung already pointed out, it would have been impossible for God to have been referring to "the Bible" when He gave Revelation to John. Since the Bible did not exist for a number of years following when Revelation was written, and since Revelation was not the last book of the New Testament to be written (even though it is placed last), God was clearly talking about the Book of Revelation when He forbade man to add to it.
Third, God prohibited man from adding to Revelation. He did not say -- or even remotely imply -- that He intended to never speak to His creations in the future. As a matter of fact, in the Old Testament, we're told that He will do nothing without revealing His intentions to His prophets. There is not indication that He would cease to communicate with us after the death of His Son. More importantly, we don't see Joseph Smith as the author of the Book of Mormon, but the translator. The fact that the book was given to him many years after it was recorded is immaterial.
Thanks for your questions. They were not offensive in the slightest. I hope we have been able to answer them to your satisfaction.
SoyLeche
meh...
I went about 15 years ago. I'm actually not too far now, so I could go if I wanted, but I don't have much of a desire. I'd rather go to Palmyra when less people are hanging around.
cardero
Citizen Mod
I was only aware of it last year but I never knew at what time it was being held. When mrscardero and I were watching the PBS special, I told her that I would like to attend that pageant some day but she reminded me that this year Godzilla would demand our attention but if I wanted to go next year, she would go with me.
FFH
Veteran Member
My wife is from Springfield Mass. and she has attended the pageant, a couple of times, which is held in Palmyra, NY on the Hill Cumorah where Joseph Smith found the buried gold plates which he translated into the book of Mormon..
A similar pageant is held in Manti, Utah which I've been to a couple of times...
Edit: just realized you are in upstate NY. If I lived that close I would go for sure. My wife says she enjoyed it. She was Catholic and converted to the LDS church 10 years before I met her in the early 80's.
FFH
Veteran Member
Source
The Hill Cumorah Pageant: A Show of All Shows
Located on Route 21 in the town of Manchester, New York, the Hill Cumorah Pageant is easily one of the worlds most spectacular religious pageants. A cast of over 600 take to the multi-level stage beginning at 9:15 pm on seven evenings in July to perform Americas Witness for Christ.
The production recreates stories from the Book of Mormon, utilizing incredible stage lighting, a state-of-the-art sound system and Hollywood special effects to add to the drama. This is a far cry from the early days of the Pageant, which traces its roots to simple performances at an annual gathering on the farm of Joseph Smith just south of Palmyra, New York, a site central to the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).
In July 1935 the annual Palmyra Conference was held at Hill Cumorah, located about one mile from the Joseph Smith Farm. It was here, according to LDS tradition, that Joseph Smith received from the Angel Moroni the golden tablets which contained the Book of Mormon. In 1936 the conference featured an historical pageant against the backdrop of Hill Cumorah, declaring that it would be an annual event.
The Hill Cumorah Pageant has evolved from these humble beginnings to what can only be described as world-class outdoor theater! It is said that as many non-Mormons as Mormons are in their seats for this show. If you are planning a visit to the Hill Cumorah Pageant, you will want to book your accommodations early. For list of places to stay see www.VisitFingerLakes.com/accommodations.asp.
The Manchester/Palmyra area is at the very heart of the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Visitors are welcome year around at the Hill Cumorah Visitors Center, the Joseph Smith Homestead (includes a log cabin and frame farmhouse), the Sacred Grove and Book of Mormon Publication Site (Grandin Building).
For more information on these historic sites visit www.hillcumorah.org.
Hill Cumorah Pageant
Palmyra Temple
The Hill Cumorah Pageant: A Show of All Shows
Located on Route 21 in the town of Manchester, New York, the Hill Cumorah Pageant is easily one of the worlds most spectacular religious pageants. A cast of over 600 take to the multi-level stage beginning at 9:15 pm on seven evenings in July to perform Americas Witness for Christ.
The production recreates stories from the Book of Mormon, utilizing incredible stage lighting, a state-of-the-art sound system and Hollywood special effects to add to the drama. This is a far cry from the early days of the Pageant, which traces its roots to simple performances at an annual gathering on the farm of Joseph Smith just south of Palmyra, New York, a site central to the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).
In July 1935 the annual Palmyra Conference was held at Hill Cumorah, located about one mile from the Joseph Smith Farm. It was here, according to LDS tradition, that Joseph Smith received from the Angel Moroni the golden tablets which contained the Book of Mormon. In 1936 the conference featured an historical pageant against the backdrop of Hill Cumorah, declaring that it would be an annual event.
The Hill Cumorah Pageant has evolved from these humble beginnings to what can only be described as world-class outdoor theater! It is said that as many non-Mormons as Mormons are in their seats for this show. If you are planning a visit to the Hill Cumorah Pageant, you will want to book your accommodations early. For list of places to stay see www.VisitFingerLakes.com/accommodations.asp.
The Manchester/Palmyra area is at the very heart of the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Visitors are welcome year around at the Hill Cumorah Visitors Center, the Joseph Smith Homestead (includes a log cabin and frame farmhouse), the Sacred Grove and Book of Mormon Publication Site (Grandin Building).
For more information on these historic sites visit www.hillcumorah.org.
Hill Cumorah Pageant
Palmyra Temple
FFH
Veteran Member
From this page
The New York Times calls the annual extravaganza atop Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, Wayne County, "a pageant performed with the spirit of a George Lucas techno-dazzler and the scope of a Cecil B. DeMille epic."
What gives the Hill Cumorah Pageant a twinge of the eerie is that it has been performed since 1937 on the very site where 14-year-old Joseph Smith purportedly discovered what was later to become known as the Book of Mormon.
This July, the tradition will continue under the guidance of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Mormons as they are commonly called.
Reminiscent of the religious pageants performed in Europe in the Middle Ages, but with more theatrical illusions, The Hill Cumorah Pageant mimics spectacular events like earthquakes, lightning strikes, an erupting volcano and the immolation of a prophet.
A carefully selected cast of 600, decked in magnificent costumes, begins the show by parading through the audience toward a 7-level sound stage constructed on the side of 300-foot Hill Cumorah-topped by a 40-foot golden statue of the angel Moroni.
The story line, beginning at about 600 B.C., describes how a group of people left Jerusalem and were guided to a land that would one day be known as America. According to the Mormons, the people were miraculously visited by Jesus in 34 A.D. Events leading up to this climactic point are dramatized from stories in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Hill Cumorah itself is crucial to the story because Mormon religious history is believed to have been written on metal tablets by the prophet Mormon and hidden in a stone box by him around 400 A.D on this very hill. They are purportedly the same tablets found by Smith in the early 1800s.
Non-Mormon viewers may consider The Hill Cumorah Pageant little more than a well-dramatized fantasy, and may find the salt potatoes sold by local Lions and Rotarians more palatable.
People-watching is always fun in this natural lawn amphitheater because each performance draws about 10,000 guests. So, whether you consider it dogma or entertainment, come early. Bring the family and a picnic supper. Plan to enjoy a pageant that is definitely world-class.
The New York Times calls the annual extravaganza atop Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, Wayne County, "a pageant performed with the spirit of a George Lucas techno-dazzler and the scope of a Cecil B. DeMille epic."
What gives the Hill Cumorah Pageant a twinge of the eerie is that it has been performed since 1937 on the very site where 14-year-old Joseph Smith purportedly discovered what was later to become known as the Book of Mormon.
This July, the tradition will continue under the guidance of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Mormons as they are commonly called.
Reminiscent of the religious pageants performed in Europe in the Middle Ages, but with more theatrical illusions, The Hill Cumorah Pageant mimics spectacular events like earthquakes, lightning strikes, an erupting volcano and the immolation of a prophet.
A carefully selected cast of 600, decked in magnificent costumes, begins the show by parading through the audience toward a 7-level sound stage constructed on the side of 300-foot Hill Cumorah-topped by a 40-foot golden statue of the angel Moroni.
The story line, beginning at about 600 B.C., describes how a group of people left Jerusalem and were guided to a land that would one day be known as America. According to the Mormons, the people were miraculously visited by Jesus in 34 A.D. Events leading up to this climactic point are dramatized from stories in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Hill Cumorah itself is crucial to the story because Mormon religious history is believed to have been written on metal tablets by the prophet Mormon and hidden in a stone box by him around 400 A.D on this very hill. They are purportedly the same tablets found by Smith in the early 1800s.
Non-Mormon viewers may consider The Hill Cumorah Pageant little more than a well-dramatized fantasy, and may find the salt potatoes sold by local Lions and Rotarians more palatable.
People-watching is always fun in this natural lawn amphitheater because each performance draws about 10,000 guests. So, whether you consider it dogma or entertainment, come early. Bring the family and a picnic supper. Plan to enjoy a pageant that is definitely world-class.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
ok, this is prob going o sound like a stupid question! But you never know.....
Do you have interfaith relationships? or do you tend to stay within the LDS community? If so if an LDS was to turn athiest, would this be a problem with the relationship?
Many Thanks
Do you have interfaith relationships? or do you tend to stay within the LDS community? If so if an LDS was to turn athiest, would this be a problem with the relationship?
Many Thanks
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
There are no stupid question, only stupid conclusions based on inacurrate information from poorly researched sources.
The Church strongly encourages its members to marry within the faith. For one thing, a relationship built on a common foundation of values and understanding is more likely to remain strong than one where there is friction and discord in terms of religious beliefs. Secondly, we are encouraged to marry in one of our temples. A temple marriage must be between two worthy Latter-day Saints.
Ah! You are describing my brother-in-law. He was raised LDS, as was my sister. She now claims to be agnostic. He is an avowed atheist. Both her extended family and part of his are devout Mormons. His brother is, in fact, an LDS Bishop. None of their devout LDS relatives were happy with their decision to leave the Church, but we all have a close relationship, regardless of differences of opinion. (I've got to admit, we all make a point not to talk much about religion.
) Now, if my sister were still a practicing member of the Church and her husband had chosen to leave, it could have been a greater problem, for the reason I mentioned previously. But we don't, as a Church, make it a practice to shun members who choose to leave the faith, and they are always welcome to return or even to attend our services as non-members of the Church.Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Ok another question - really basic one! I thought of it last night, while looking through the official mormon website! The 10% tithing you pay is that before or after tax? also is it yearly/monthly/weekly?
I know its not an important question, but i have it on my mind!
I know its not an important question, but i have it on my mind!
SoyLeche
meh...
I don't know that there is a rule on that - and I know people that pay it all sorts of ways. A friend of mine pays after tax because he says that he feels no need to pay the government's tithing. I pay pre tax because I see taxes as a type of a fee I am paying for a service (granted, I don't get to decide if I want the service or not, and I have no say whatsoever on the price).Ok another question - really basic one! I thought of it last night, while looking through the official mormon website! The 10% tithing you pay is that before or after tax? also is it yearly/monthly/weekly?
I know its not an important question, but i have it on my mind!
As for the timing of the payment, in general you should pay your tithing first, so it makes sense to pay it whenever you recieve a paycheck. That's how I do it. It seems to me that my parents pay it annually when they do their taxes. Again, it is flexible.
(i sincerely apologize to everyone for the length of this post! it was hard getting all my thoughts on this together...)
Okay, I have spent the last week immersed in LDS history since watching the PBS special. I have a million questions but will just tackle them as they come up, if that is okay but with the full disclosure of my motives up front.
I have approached the subject as a skeptic but with a high level of curiosity and interest going waaaay back. My first reaction when approached by some high school pals who were TBM's years ago was: wow! what a quirky religion! I went to some awkward LDS teen events with them, I did a little research then but grew bored and moved on.
Later my first oil company job surrounded me with Mormons, my Mormon boss had 6 kids, a great home life and was the dearest man I ever met in the business world. I looked into the religion a little more, but there was always a veil of secrecy surrounding some of the key doctrinal questions and the answers I got were vague and unsatisfactory. Again, I just got bored and moved on.
Now after viewing the PBS special I realized: virtually all the answeres I had about this religion for so long are probably available to me easily now through internet research. As such, I have no qualms about reading various historical accounts rendered from within and without the church itself, nor do I have a problem with using ANY source including visiting sites and using references provided by ex-Mormons, who naturally have no problem revealing 'what's behind the curtain' so to speak. Of course it is only fair to try and filter out the bitterness or anger, but ex-anythings are always a good resource for stuff left out of the official literature. I especially loved reading all the first hand accounts of the endowments, and people's various responses to that ritual.
As a skeptic and a naturally curious human being, the most interesting subjects would be the earliest history, the biographies of its founder, the temple work, especially the garments and costumes, the handshakes and all the rituals. For example, I had a lot of fun pursuing questions like "how did this garment come about and evolve, what did the first garment look like, why did it change, what do the symbols mean" -- and looking at it all as a mystery with clues and evidence, then putting it all together with a logical conclusion if possible.
Okay so considering all that, if you would rather I leave off asking my skeptical questions then fine, so be it and I understand completely. I will bow out gracefully. But understand I am more interested in your input as believers -- not that I will necessarily agree with you -- but how you explain TO YOURSELVES what may be viewed by us curious outsiders as some pretty strange beliefs and behaviors. I have no real interest in debating LDS doctrine, which historically has changed so much over time that from my skeptical pov is like trying to nail jello to a tree anyway.:sorry1:
question 1:
It seems to me that the religion was born out of that first vision in 1820 with the shocking pivotal revelation from God that ALL the churches were wrong, all their creeds are an abomination, and JS was twice ordered not to join them.
I don't understand why Jos. Smith then went off and tried to join the local Methodist church his wife belonged to in 1928. God had told him eight years before not to do it and he did it anyway. Of course the Methodists put the brakes on his membership request almost immediately, but in your mind why did he disobey God's face to face commandment not to join?
2.
Have you ever read Joseph Smith's own early handwritten accounts of the first vision btw? Are these handwritten accounts widely published or considered official doctrine?
Disclaimer: It is not my intent to offend any LDS member on or off the board. If I have done so inadvertently it is out of ignorance, and I apologize in advance.
Okay, I have spent the last week immersed in LDS history since watching the PBS special. I have a million questions but will just tackle them as they come up, if that is okay but with the full disclosure of my motives up front.
I have approached the subject as a skeptic but with a high level of curiosity and interest going waaaay back. My first reaction when approached by some high school pals who were TBM's years ago was: wow! what a quirky religion! I went to some awkward LDS teen events with them, I did a little research then but grew bored and moved on.
Later my first oil company job surrounded me with Mormons, my Mormon boss had 6 kids, a great home life and was the dearest man I ever met in the business world. I looked into the religion a little more, but there was always a veil of secrecy surrounding some of the key doctrinal questions and the answers I got were vague and unsatisfactory. Again, I just got bored and moved on.
Now after viewing the PBS special I realized: virtually all the answeres I had about this religion for so long are probably available to me easily now through internet research. As such, I have no qualms about reading various historical accounts rendered from within and without the church itself, nor do I have a problem with using ANY source including visiting sites and using references provided by ex-Mormons, who naturally have no problem revealing 'what's behind the curtain' so to speak. Of course it is only fair to try and filter out the bitterness or anger, but ex-anythings are always a good resource for stuff left out of the official literature. I especially loved reading all the first hand accounts of the endowments, and people's various responses to that ritual.
As a skeptic and a naturally curious human being, the most interesting subjects would be the earliest history, the biographies of its founder, the temple work, especially the garments and costumes, the handshakes and all the rituals. For example, I had a lot of fun pursuing questions like "how did this garment come about and evolve, what did the first garment look like, why did it change, what do the symbols mean" -- and looking at it all as a mystery with clues and evidence, then putting it all together with a logical conclusion if possible.
Okay so considering all that, if you would rather I leave off asking my skeptical questions then fine, so be it and I understand completely. I will bow out gracefully. But understand I am more interested in your input as believers -- not that I will necessarily agree with you -- but how you explain TO YOURSELVES what may be viewed by us curious outsiders as some pretty strange beliefs and behaviors. I have no real interest in debating LDS doctrine, which historically has changed so much over time that from my skeptical pov is like trying to nail jello to a tree anyway.:sorry1:
question 1:
It seems to me that the religion was born out of that first vision in 1820 with the shocking pivotal revelation from God that ALL the churches were wrong, all their creeds are an abomination, and JS was twice ordered not to join them.
I don't understand why Jos. Smith then went off and tried to join the local Methodist church his wife belonged to in 1928. God had told him eight years before not to do it and he did it anyway. Of course the Methodists put the brakes on his membership request almost immediately, but in your mind why did he disobey God's face to face commandment not to join?
2.
Have you ever read Joseph Smith's own early handwritten accounts of the first vision btw? Are these handwritten accounts widely published or considered official doctrine?
Disclaimer: It is not my intent to offend any LDS member on or off the board. If I have done so inadvertently it is out of ignorance, and I apologize in advance.
SoyLeche
meh...
I don't have my copy of "Rough Stone Rolling" handy, so if nobody else gets to it I may come back later. From what I remember, though, there are contradicting stories about what happened here. I don't think we know for sure if he ever tried to "join" the church, or if he just "attended" the church. Either way, it was probably an attempt to appease his in-laws.
SoyLeche
meh...
The account that is widely published is the one found in the Pearl of Great Price. I'm not entirely sure which one that is. If it isn't the Wentworth letter version, then that one is fairly well known too. Most people have not read the earlier accounts, but they are pretty easy to find and have been studied quite a bit, but mostly by historians. You can find some of the scholarly work on them at farms.byu.edu
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
There is no set rule; as a matter of fact, if asked this question by members of their congregation, LDS bishops are supposed to instruct those individuals that it is between them and God. Most devout Latter-day Saints that I know pay on their gross, but some do not. I pay quarterly. My guess is that the majority of people pay monthly. It really doesn't matter at all.
SoyLeche
meh...
I found a link that may help:
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_Anti-Mormons_and_Documentary_Sources.html
Aqualung
Tasty
I do it right when I get my paycheck or I will forget. Currently, that means monthly, but next year that will probably mean every two weeks.
As a believer, how important is the first vision to you personally?
SoyLeche
meh...
Very important.