• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Ask an ex-seminarian turned anthropologist of religion

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Thought I would join in on the fun! Or try to. I suppose it's up to you guys. But I've been enjoying reading the threads in here this evening, so I thought I would pitch in on the other side of the interview stand. I have been studying religion in various capacities for my whole life, and hold a graduate degree in anthropology and linguistics, so that is my main thing and (these days) the primary window from which I look out on the religious world.

But I'm happy to talk about whatever tickles your fancy. Like most anthropologists, I take a Renaissance attitude toward domains of knowledge and interest.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
What is your perspective on the Divine, @Politesse? Do you believe in a single God? Many gods? Do you believe in the Universe as God? How do you see It?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmm...this is a half-formed question, so I apologize, but in your experience how important a role does religion play as a culture-carrier?
I mean, I'm sure it's important, but just interested in how you see it generally.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Boxers, briefs, commando, or Depends (TM)?

Why the heck not?

How do you deal with the gap between being an observer and experiencing the culture, including its religion?
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
What is your perspective on the Divine, @Politesse? Do you believe in a single God? Many gods? Do you believe in the Universe as God? How do you see It?
Ah, a good question, and one that I skew heavily toward agnosticism on. I more or less believe in the divine, but I'm not confident in our ability to know or understand it, and I have grown suspicious of attempts to encapsulate the divine within symbolic reasoning. So at points in my life I have described myself as a monotheist, polytheist, or panentheist, and frankly see many virtues in all of those perspectives. On some phenomenological level, I do believe that there is a continuity in the way human beings relate to intangible beings, and intuitively reject reductive materialist explanations for the whole affair. But what is right seems trickier to fathom, and I do not pretend to know the answer. My work takes me into contact with people of many different cosmologies, as do my personal explorations of faith, and I try to take them as seriously as I can, as claims with as much inherent worth as my old noggin could come up with. My personal devotions are a mish-mash of my Christian upbringing (I think of the universal God in Christian terms, when left to my own instincts) and later experiences like my explorations of European paganism (the altar to Lord and Lady in my library) and scholarly studies (obligations and promises to various gods, spirits, and ghosts I've encountered in fieldwork over the years, or whose traditions I teach about in one of my classes). Family is also important to me, so I insofar as I know how to I try to honor my roots in pre- and post-Christian Europe, the North American Plains, and West Africa. Whether this amorphous bundle of practices will one day coalesce into a consistent systematic theology, I honestly can't say. I am still young, by modern standards, and enjoy thinking about things.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thought I would join in on the fun! Or try to. I suppose it's up to you guys. But I've been enjoying reading the threads in here this evening, so I thought I would pitch in on the other side of the interview stand. I have been studying religion in various capacities for my whole life, and hold a graduate degree in anthropology and linguistics, so that is my main thing and (these days) the primary window from which I look out on the religious world.

But I'm happy to talk about whatever tickles your fancy. Like most anthropologists, I take a Renaissance attitude toward domains of knowledge and interest.
What really caused the decline of slavery on the post Roman Europe.
Was it
a) Christianity?
b) Absence of new slaves as Roman conquest expeditions stopped?
c) Fundamental change in how agricultural labor was practiced?
d) The Germanic tribes had no tradition of using slaves in extensive labor economy?

Thanks
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Thought I would join in on the fun! Or try to. I suppose it's up to you guys. But I've been enjoying reading the threads in here this evening, so I thought I would pitch in on the other side of the interview stand. I have been studying religion in various capacities for my whole life, and hold a graduate degree in anthropology and linguistics, so that is my main thing and (these days) the primary window from which I look out on the religious world.

But I'm happy to talk about whatever tickles your fancy. Like most anthropologists, I take a Renaissance attitude toward domains of knowledge and interest.
What sort of seminary did you study in? What prompted you to go there, and what prompted you to leave?
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Boxers, briefs, commando, or Depends (TM)?

Why the heck not?

How do you deal with the gap between being an observer and experiencing the culture, including its religion?
I try to cut the difference with boxer-briefs. My schlong is too big to get away with going commando under work slacks, so that is a weekend-only indulgence. I always thought proper boxers were too bulky, I feel like I'm wearing a diaper in those things. If genetics will out, Depends may be in my future, but thank goodness, not yet.

The problem is more that there isn't a gap; ultimately, you cannot observe humans without on some level becoming a participant in their affairs. Humans are conscious beings, and they notice when someone is standing in the corner with a notebook. So the only question is what kind of a participant you're going to be - purely disruptive, or trying to participate consciously? The ironic thing is that the more earnestly the field worker tries to go "all in" on participation, the less disruptive they often are, because once you have begun to master the discourse of a community, you are less likely to do or say things that interrupt the natural flow of something like a communal ritual. I know that there are many approaches to ethnography, and that many anthropologists (especially if they are atheists) try to maintain rigid walls between themselves and their informants (or their informants' gods!) and this can lead to some very sober and therefore materially accurate field notes. But as this leaves one unaware of the whole subjective aspects of religious experience and guarantees being forever left out of the inner circle of any religious group, I do not prefer this. I would rather participate as honestly as I can, and save my dissembling for later. We may shade things in a materialist way in publication, that being the only way to stay published, but I think most ethnographers with much time experience eventually take on shades of their informants' faiths in one way or another. And this is right and good. When it comes to field ethics, it is more important to be strictly honest with your informants than with your thesis committee. Tricky but true. The most interesting ethnographic writing sometimes comes from old hands in the field, who now have enough tenure and influence to get away with asking ontological questions and clearly expressing the role that the subjective played in their research.

The trick, of course, is to do all this and still maintain your capacity for cool, objective observation at the same time. But in this, I don't think religion is the only challenge. Everything from politics to family life contains pools of opportunities to lose your objectivity, and emotional involvements are inevitable in any kind of inter-cultural study. To retain your capacity for good descriptive practice requires considerable mental discipline, and is accrued over long experience in ethnographic observation. There is no shortcut or substitute; it has to become your first instinct to recall and be able to reproduce in writing the things you see. Not just in intense situations, either. When you have been at it for a while, the smallest casual interactions become opportunities for careful human observation. If it is your instinct in daily life, it is more likely to stick with you later when you really need it. I strongly encourage budding anthropologists toward the useful habit of diary-keeping in daily life, for the same reason.

If actually in the field, I always stress the importance of dedicating enough time to documentation; it's better to limit your actual elicitation/participation exercises if they are cutting into your writing time. I feel it is important for careful writing and analysis of observations to be a goal in and of itself, that sufficient time must be budgeted for. Maybe something like 60/40 between the having of experiences and the documentation of experiences. Often, if I feel that I may have been emotionally compromised by the situation, I will start making observations about my own reaction and how it is changing as the shock of the original experience fades, just like a medical doctor would observe their physical shock systems as they subside; knowing your own mind is a distinct benefit here. I am also a strong believer in conversation, and will try to talk with my informants about what I have experienced and what parts of my reaction would be "normal" for someone in their community, vs. possibly just personal to me.
 
Last edited:

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Ah, a good question, and one that I skew heavily toward agnosticism on. I more or less believe in the divine, but I'm not confident in our ability to know or understand it, and I have grown suspicious of attempts to encapsulate the divine within symbolic reasoning. So at points in my life I have described myself as a monotheist, polytheist, or panentheist, and frankly see many virtues in all of those perspectives. On some phenomenological level, I do believe that there is a continuity in the way human beings relate to intangible beings, and intuitively reject reductive materialist explanations for the whole affair. But what is right seems trickier to fathom, and I do not pretend to know the answer. My work takes me into contact with people of many different cosmologies, as do my personal explorations of faith, and I try to take them as seriously as I can, as claims with as much inherent worth as my old noggin could come up with. My personal devotions are a mish-mash of my Christian upbringing (I think of the universal God in Christian terms, when left to my own instincts) and later experiences like my explorations of European paganism (the altar to Lord and Lady in my library) and scholarly studies (obligations and promises to various gods, spirits, and ghosts I've encountered in fieldwork over the years, or whose traditions I teach about in one of my classes). Family is also important to me, so I insofar as I know how to I try to honor my roots in pre- and post-Christian Europe, the North American Plains, and West Africa. Whether this amorphous bundle of practices will one day coalesce into a consistent systematic theology, I honestly can't say. I am still young, by modern standards, and enjoy thinking about things.

I see. That's quite creative! :sparkles::D
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Hmm...this is a half-formed question, so I apologize, but in your experience how important a role does religion play as a culture-carrier?
I mean, I'm sure it's important, but just interested in how you see it generally.
Boy, that's a tough one!

I think part of the problem here is that both culture and religion are extremely abstract concepts, and like most abstract concepts, more "imposed" than they are "discovered". The complexity of human social experience is too fraught and fractaline to deal with, so we pick some generalizations to build our categories around. This is all well and good, because we do need to be reductive to be functional (and sane?) in a world of seemingly bottomless complexities. But we need to be very careful about assigning causality to what is essentially a category rather than a natural property. I don't think a religion can "cause" anything, ultimately, because although religion refers to real things, those real things are deeply complex mixtures of symbolism, experience, and relationship. I find it absurd when people say things like "Islam causes violence" or "Buddhism cures depression", not because those statements don't describe real things but because the reality they describe is much more complicated than such a reduction would suggest. Faith can fuel a Jihad, but so can economics, or family drama between generations of a middle class family, and even the participants would have a hard time figuring our where faith ends and economics or interpersonal anger begin. Mental practice can help one cope with anxiety... if a number of things happen that need to, and a sufficiently supportive social atmosphere (and social class privilege) give one the time to explore them. Et cetera. I have similar feelings about culture, which is a real but diffuse and changeable thing, blending into psychology at one end and population statistics at the other. No one is ever forced to do something by their culture, nor do they ever do anything truly independent of it; we cannot even think without verbalizing those thoughts in our first language. But neither is any cultural paradigm strong enough to subvert individual variations of worldview and personality, nor account satisfyingly for every novel experience a person will have in their lifetime.

So can religion bear culture, or culture bear religion? I think either of those statements gives too much agency to the high-level abstractions that are at either end of the metaphor. These are categories, not subjects, and they cannot "do" things as a subject would.

That said...

The connections between culture and religion are as many and complex as the concepts themselves, and just as real. I do not think that one can acquire culture without acquiring at least some elements of religion as well, at least insofar as an anthropologist would define religion. And any religious community, being also a social community, naturally and inevitably breeds unique cultural patterns. Religion also suggests a metaphorical and symbolic world that is often employed in trying to explain cultural practices and beliefs; I don't agree with Levi-Strauss about the particulars of binary oppositional thinking, but I think he was right to look toward myth when trying to understand the apparent limitations and well-worn channels of a given cultural community. Whether or not they are the only factor, they are always a factor.
 
Last edited:

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Boy, that's a tough one!

I think part of the problem here is that both culture and religion are extremely abstract concepts, and like most abstract concepts, more "imposed" than they are "discovered". The complexity of human social experience is too fraught and fractaline to deal with, so we pick some generalizations to build our categories around. This is all well and good, because we do need to be reductive to be functional (and sane?) in a world of seemingly bottomless complexities. But we need to be very careful about assigning causality to what is essentially a category rather than a natural property. I don't think a religion can "cause" anything, ultimately, because although religion refers to real things, those real things are deeply complex mixtures of symbolism, experience, and relationship. I find it absurd when people say things like "Islam causes violence" or "Buddhism cures depression", not because those statements don't describe real things but because the reality they describe is much more complicated than such a reduction would suggest. Faith can fuel a Jihad, but so can economics, or family drama between generations of a middle class family, and even the participants would have a hard time figuring our where faith ends and economics or interpersonal anger begin. Mental practice can help one cope with anxiety... if a number of things happen that need to, and a sufficiently supportive social atmosphere (and social class privilege) give one the time to explore them. Et cetera. I have similar feelings about culture, which is a real but diffuse and changeable thing, blending into psychology at one end and population statistics at the other. No one is ever forced to do something by their culture, nor do they ever do anything truly independent of it; we cannot even think without verbalizing those thoughts in our first language. But neither is any cultural paradigm strong enough to subvert individual variations of worldview and personality, nor account satisfyingly for every novel experience a person will have in their lifetime.

So can religion bear culture, or culture bear religion? I think either of those statements gives too much agency to the high-level abstractions that are at either end of the metaphor. These are categories, not subjects, and they cannot "do" things as a subject would.

That said...

The connections between culture and religion are as many and complex as the concepts themselves, and just as real. I do not think that one can acquire culture without acquiring at least some elements of religion as well, at least insofar as an anthropologist would define religion. And any religious community, being also a social community, naturally and inevitably breeds unique cultural patterns. Religion also suggests a metaphorical and symbolic world that is often employed in trying to explain cultural practices and beliefs; I don't agree with Levi-Strauss about the particulars of binary oppositional thinking, but I think he was right to look toward myth when trying to understand the apparent limitations and well-worn channels of a given cultural community. Whether or not they are the only factor, they are always a factor.

Assuming time allows (maybe not today) I'll try and unpack this, but wow...that is a great response. I appreciate the thought in it, I got more than I was expecting. Initial take is that this makes a lot of sense to me, and I particularly found the idea that one can't acquire culture without also acquiring elements of religion as very true in terms of what I have seen, and interesting to think about in the more abstract sense.

Times like these I wish I could teleport to a pub and shoot the breeze with someone over a pint. Dunno if you drink, but I'd happily finish yours for you anyway.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Assuming time allows (maybe not today) I'll try and unpack this, but wow...that is a great response. I appreciate the thought in it, I got more than I was expecting. Initial take is that this makes a lot of sense to me, and I particularly found the idea that one can't acquire culture without also acquiring elements of religion as very true in terms of what I have seen, and interesting to think about in the more abstract sense.

Times like these I wish I could teleport to a pub and shoot the breeze with someone over a pint. Dunno if you drink, but I'd happily finish yours for you anyway.
Darn oceans, always cutting in on pub time with my Trans-Pacific buddies. :) I appreciate alcohol, but Gastro-Enterological Reflux disease has had a withering effect on my consumption thereof, alas!
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
What really caused the decline of slavery on the post Roman Europe.
Was it
a) Christianity?
b) Absence of new slaves as Roman conquest expeditions stopped?
c) Fundamental change in how agricultural labor was practiced?
d) The Germanic tribes had no tradition of using slaves in extensive labor economy?

Thanks
Hmm, interesting question! Not my area at all, so I have only an uninformed opinion.

a. Certainly, there were many persons within Christian history who attempted to end or curb slavery (at least of other Christians) for purely religious reasons, and not just John VIII; all through medieval and colonial history we see continued attempts to combat what seems to have continued as a practice long after being outlawed by the dying Rome. Christians were certainly quick enough to take slaves in the New World, often over the protestations of the church. However, the church also took its own slaves. And those who pushed for legal slavery, or systems of serfdom that were very much like it, also cited Christianity as among their justifications. I don't think in any case religions can "make" one take a political position per se; see my response to lewisnotmiller in #13 for an explanation of why. When the socialized consensus of Christendom was against slavery, so was "Christianity"; when it had become re-conventionalized as an economic engine "Christianity" also supported it. At the same time that it buttressed abolitionists. I'm certain that all parties were genuinely convinced of the theological arguments they made and might even have cited and thought of Christianity as their primary motivator, but it is also true that we are products of our times, and that in an aggressively Christian theocracy, no political argument could have been made without some manner of Christian theological support.

Given the nature of Christian scriptures, it would have been impossible to treat slaves the way traditional Roman law did, utterly without rights nor necessity of mercy or pity, and I wonder whether the practice of owning slaves became more expensive over time as a result.

b. This one seems very unlikely to me, as war by no means decreased during this time period. Just because Rome isn't succeeding in expanding its borders doesn't mean it isn't fighting wars and taking prisoners. Slaves might have become more expensive though. Do we have any data on this, I wonder?

c. This seems very likely. From a landowner's perspective, there's no need for chattel slavery if they have a constant body of serfs who "owe" them the produce of the land; people they don't have to purchase, conquer, or feed. Why buy milk when you own the cow? And perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that when the practice revived, it was after pushing into new territories in Africa and later the New World where such ancestral ties of de facto perpetual ownership (by Europeans at least) did not exist.

d. This one is is quite wrong. There are accounts of slavery in the Germanic tribes.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I try to cut the difference with boxer-briefs. My schlong is too big to get away with going commando under work slacks, so that is a weekend-only indulgence. I always thought proper boxers were too bulky, I feel like I'm wearing a diaper in those things. If genetics will out, Depends may be in my future, but thank goodness, not yet.

The problem is more that there isn't a gap; ultimately, you cannot observe humans without on some level becoming a participant in their affairs. Humans are conscious beings, and they notice when someone is standing in the corner with a notebook. So the only question is what kind of a participant you're going to be - purely disruptive, or trying to participate consciously? The ironic thing is that the more earnestly the field worker tries to go "all in" on participation, the less disruptive they often are, because once you have begun to master the discourse of a community, you are less likely to do or say things that interrupt the natural flow of something like a communal ritual. I know that there are many approaches to ethnography, and that many anthropologists (especially if they are atheists) try to maintain rigid walls between themselves and their informants (or their informants' gods!) and this can lead to some very sober and therefore materially accurate field notes. But as this leaves one unaware of the whole subjective aspects of religious experience and guarantees being forever left out of the inner circle of any religious group, I do not prefer this. I would rather participate as honestly as I can, and save my dissembling for later. We may shade things in a materialist way in publication, that being the only way to stay published, but I think most ethnographers with much time experience eventually take on shades of their informants' faiths in one way or another. And this is right and good. When it comes to field ethics, it is more important to be strictly honest with your informants than with your thesis committee. Tricky but true. The most interesting ethnographic writing sometimes comes from old hands in the field, who now have enough tenure and influence to get away with asking ontological questions and clearly expressing the role that the subjective played in their research.

The trick, of course, is to do all this and still maintain your capacity for cool, objective observation at the same time. But in this, I don't think religion is the only challenge. Everything from politics to family life contains pools of opportunities to lose your objectivity, and emotional involvements are inevitable in any kind of inter-cultural study. To retain your capacity for good descriptive practice requires considerable mental discipline, and is accrued over long experience in ethnographic observation. There is no shortcut or substitute; it has to become your first instinct to recall and be able to reproduce in writing the things you see. Not just in intense situations, either. When you have been at it for a while, the smallest casual interactions become opportunities for careful human observation. If it is your instinct in daily life, it is more likely to stick with you later when you really need it. I strongly encourage budding anthropologists toward the useful habit of diary-keeping in daily life, for the same reason.

If actually in the field, I always stress the importance of dedicating enough time to documentation; it's better to limit your actual elicitation/participation exercises if they are cutting into your writing time. I feel it is important for careful writing and analysis of observations to be a goal in and of itself, that sufficient time must be budgeted for. Maybe something like 60/40 between the having of experiences and the documentation of experiences. Often, if I feel that I may have been emotionally compromised by the situation, I will start making observations about my own reaction and how it is changing as the shock of the original experience fades, just like a medical doctor would observe their physical shock systems as they subside; knowing your own mind is a distinct benefit here. I am also a strong believer in conversation, and will try to talk with my informants about what I have experienced and what parts of my reaction would be "normal" for someone in their community, vs. possibly just personal to me.
thank you for your detailed answer. In my doctoral studies, I was very impressed with the qualitative methods, and used some in a preliminary sort of way in a couple of minor projects that did not directly lead to publications or presentations (except to the class). Still, the concern for the separation of observer/observed is still sought my many in the social sciences, including my field of public management--who are suffering from "physics envy" as far as I'm concerned--where one must have quantitative data and statistical analysis, although there is a healthy discussion of how appropriate that might be for many questions we face...
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have been studying religion in various capacities for my whole life, and hold a graduate degree in anthropology and linguistics, so that is my main thing and (these days) the primary window from which I look out on the religious world.
Seems like we're kindred spirits as I also have a graduate degree in anthropology and taught it for 30 years.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ah, a good question, and one that I skew heavily toward agnosticism on.
Most anthropologists that I know fall into pretty much the same category including myself, and I think that's largely because we spend so much time studying different religions. It's sorta like "if you have one clock, you know exactly what time it is; but if you have more than one clock then you can't be sure what time it actually is".
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Interesting thread, @Politesse.

An article I found says: "There has been protracted debate among scholars as to whether it is possible for a nonbeliever to make definitive pronouncements concerning the religious beliefs of others." Content Pages of the Encyclopedia of Religion and Social Science Where are you on that question? Can a nonbeliever make "definitive pronouncements" on the religious beliefs of others?

@metis, I would certainly like to hear your answer as well.
 
Top