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Ask me anything about the science of Evolution :)

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The following is not a product of "random mutation"; nor is it a product of evolution. It is nothing more than make believe images strung together with no supporting facts to support this BS;------------------------- period.
BTW; there are monkeys climbing trees today. What's up, were they picking up fallen nuts on the ground when the great mutation took place and got left behind? lol

View attachment 21337
Actually that image is one that confuses a lot of creationists. They get an incorrect concept of evolution from it since it is not an accurate reproduction of the evolutionary process.

And seriously you are asking about monkeys? Either you have never argued this before or you can't face up to how poor of an argument this is. It is akin to stating that there should not be any Europeans since Americans are (largely) descended from Europeans. Amazingly you can probably see how inane that argument is but you can't see that you made the exact same argument.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
The following is not a product of "random mutation"; nor is it a product of evolution. It is nothing more than make believe images strung together with no supporting facts to support this BS;------------------------- period.

These are real fossils and they show how human features appeared gradually over time in the fossil record:

hominids2_big.jpg
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Here is a good question—

Why do some men (most of them) go bald when they age and women don’t?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for your offer.

Regarding the randomness of mutations and gene copying errors. Evolutionists try to say it's not random (they don't like that term for some reason), but what I am interested in knowing concerns the fact that mutations and gene copying errors do in fact occur without any pre-planning by someone. You can't predict in advance that one is about to occur, especially a significant one that turns out to be selected for via natural selection and that triggers a significant evolutionary train of events.

When I try to research whether the probability of such "random" events are capable of explaining all of evolution, all I find is evolutionists disputing creationists who are using statistics wrongly to come up with wildly extremely high odds against evolution.

I want to know what the probability really is; whether evolution is sensible from this perspective.
Is this paper useful to answer your question. Please let me know. Also ask if tuete are things that you find difficult to follow. :)

The rate of mutation of a single gene
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Is this paper useful to answer your question. Please let me know. Also ask if tuete are things that you find difficult to follow.
Thank you. That was very interesting and helpful. Gives you the warm and fuzzies that they really can measure mutation rates.

What I'm also wondering is whether there is a pathway from some primitive organism to a more complicated modern one (understanding of course that evolution doesn't know ahead of time specifically what it is building) and whether this pathway can be achieved in the times allotted via the mutation rates.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
These are real fossils and they show how human features appeared gradually over time in the fossil record:

Subduction Zone ,
I have come back to apologize to you for my post. I have zero (0) knowledge of this subject. You, on the other hand are very knowledgeable on this subject.

In short, I have no business butting in on something I know nothing of. For some reason I decided to jump in and make a fool out of myself without any outside help.

please forgive me
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone ,
I have come back to apologize to you for my post. I have zero (0) knowledge of this subject. You, on the other hand are very knowledgeable on this subject.

In short, I have no business butting in on something I know nothing of. For some reason I decided to jump in and make a fool out of myself without any outside help.

please forgive me

No problem. It is never too late to learn. There are countless Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc.. that have no problem maintaining their religious beliefs and accepting the fact that the diversity of life is the product of evolution. There is no need to take morality tales of the Bible literally.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you. That was very interesting and helpful. Gives you the warm and fuzzies that they really can measure mutation rates.

What I'm also wondering is whether there is a pathway from some primitive organism to a more complicated modern one (understanding of course that evolution doesn't know ahead of time specifically what it is building) and whether this pathway can be achieved in the times allotted via the mutation rates.
Happy to help. :)
Your question is a very broad one. There is a good (but incomplete) understanding of the major mutation steps that caused the evolution of complex multi-cellular life from primitive unicellular bacteria-like organisms. But that is a very long drawn out process on which entire books have been written. The best one I can recommend is "Life Ascending" which is an excellent book that is under $10 in Kindle,
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Ascendi...p/B0041G68LO/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me=https://www.amazon.com/Life-Ascendi...p/B0041G68LO/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me=
Your second question is whether the mutation rate is enough to account for the evolutionary changes from simple cells to complex life of today. The answer is yes. Mutation rates are vastly in excess to that required to make it happen. In most cases natural selection's task is to eliminate most of these mutations to keep the genome stable at a fitness maxima. This is called purifying selection. However, when environments change, suddenly the genome shifts away from the fitness peak. Then, and only then, does natural selection drives evolutionary change by selecting and fixing mutations that change the genome towards a new fitness peak. Thus evolution occurs in relatively rapid bursts during times of environmental stress, followed by periods of stasis when the species is close to optimum adaptation in its environment.

Rapid Evolution Changes Species in Real Time | DiscoverMagazine.com

Most recently, evolutionary biologist Yoel Stuart found that green anole lizards on islands in Florida’s Indian River Lagoon needed just 20 generations to adapt to an invasion of brown anoles. Driven to higher perches by the invaders, the green anoles became better at clinging to branches by developing larger toepads with more scalesin just 15 years. It’s more evidence of “evolutionary change on observable time scales,” says Stuart, now at the University of Texas at Austin.

Change.jpg


Adding to those examples, evidence of evolution occurring faster than previously appreciated has continued to accumulate over the past few decades. It is now clear that, while observed rates of change may well be rapid relative to the evolutionary timescales that Darwin theorized about, they’re not at all exceptional. “Within evolutionary biology there really has been an unheralded paradigm shift between 1980 and now,” says Reznick. “Most evolutionary biologists consider it routine to think of evolution as a contemporary process.”

The concept, appropriately termed contemporary evolution, is now well accepted, agrees Stephen Ellner, an ecologist and evolutionary biologist at Cornell University. “At this point, there’s a general understanding that this is happening, and it’s happening all over.” The research has now shifted from documenting this phenomenon to studying its consequences.

https://www.the-scientist.com/?arti...tion-s-Quick-Pace-Affects-Ecosystem-Dynamics/

After the Nature and Science studies came out, Hendry and Kinnison got together to develop a framework for quantifying rates of evolutionary change. They promoted the use of the haldane (a change of one standard deviation in a phenotypic trait per generation; named after evolutionary thinker J.B.S. Haldane) over the darwin (the proportional change in a phenotype per million years; named after you-know-who), and encouraged researchers to provide confidence intervals and measures of statistical significance. If done correctly, “evolutionary rates provide a convenient way to compare the tempo of evolution across studies, traits, taxa, and time scales,” Hendry and Kinnison wrote in 1999.8

In total, the researchers gathered data on 30 different animal species, for a total of 2,151 evolutionary rates calculated in haldanes, and another 2,649 in darwins.

Many scientists had been able to document dramatic change over short time frames was precisely because they were limiting the duration of observation; in the short term is when evolution’s at its fastest.
“If populations are really tracking dynamic environments—year-to-year variation in climate, other species that they depend upon or compete with, or the like—then you would expect their traits to be bumping around pretty rapidly. But over the long term, a lot of these processes average out, [which] flattens those rates down.”



However, if the environmental change is directional and consistent (like an ice age, a global warming, large scale volcanism or mountain building etc.) then the fast speed of evolution at the local time scales accumulate to create very large directional evolutionary changes in species over a few million years or less. This is what we see in the major evolutionary events like whale evolution, bird evolution or human evolution from ancient apes even.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone ,
I have come back to apologize to you for my post. I have zero (0) knowledge of this subject. You, on the other hand are very knowledgeable on this subject.

In short, I have no business butting in on something I know nothing of. For some reason I decided to jump in and make a fool out of myself without any outside help.

please forgive me

Not a problem. We have all made mistakes and learned from them.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
What I'm also wondering is whether there is a pathway from some primitive organism to a more complicated modern one (understanding of course that evolution doesn't know ahead of time specifically what it is building) and whether this pathway can be achieved in the times allotted via the mutation rates.

In order to use the methods popular in population genetics you need a few of the branches from the species tree at different time periods. The problem is that we lack a lot of these branches far down on the tree due to extinction.

Language is probably a good example. We can see that some modern languages are quite similar, even if speakers of those different languages can't communicate with each other. For example, there are obvious similarities between French, Italian, and Spanish. These languages share a recent common ancestor which is why we can still see these similarities. However, if language groups separated from each other a very long time ago we would be hard pressed to see any similarities. If we had branches of those language trees all along the way then we may be able to reconstruct how those languages changed over time, but if all we have are two languages separated by 10's of thousands of years we really can't say much about how they changed. The same applies to genomes.

The biggest gap in the genetic data we have is between prokaryotes and eukaryotes. On the eukaryote side we do have some data from single celled protists, species like Volvox that form very simple multicellular bodies, sponges with very few tissues, and cniderians with very simple body structures. However, even those branches are well separated so it is very difficult to use mutation rates and genetic differences to get a feel for what happened. At the same time, I have yet to see any insurmountable differences in the eukaryote tree.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Happy to help.
Another question, if you are up to it. Why does mathematics seem so tightly integrated with the physical universe? Is matter and energy and such actually mathematical in nature as Max Tegmark proposes? If so, how could this be so if mathematics is pure reason as Immanuel Kant proposed? I'm shy about adopting Idealism to explain this.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The problem is that we lack a lot of these branches far down on the tree due to extinction.
Yes, these gaps are used by creationists and such to prove evolution wrong. But why would anyone expect ancient history to leave a complete trail of unbroken evidence? We should feel lucky to have and evidence at all.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
As a scientist who closely follow the scientific research on biological evolution, I am in full agreement with 99% of US scientists that evolution is the mechanism by which all life has evolved into its current multifarious forms on earth.

Ask me any specific questions or clear any specific doubts you have about evolutionary science and its conclusions.

Also note that evolutionary science follow the scientific method. If you reject the scientific method as a means of knowing about reality, then this thread is not for you.

Otherwise ask away
:)
How does evolution apply to Adam and Eve? Like, what is the science on this? Inquiring minds want to know!

*giggles*

*slides back under his rock*
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Language is probably a good example. We can see that some modern languages are quite similar, even if speakers of those different languages can't communicate with each other.
Thank you. This seems like a good analogy, making the concepts clearer to understand.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Yes, these gaps are used by creationists and such to prove evolution wrong. But why would anyone expect ancient history to leave a complete trail of unbroken evidence? We should feel lucky to have and evidence at all.

Exactly.

More importantly, the fact that we know where the gaps are is evidence for evolution. The only way there are gaps is if the phylogenetic tree is real, and a phylogenetic tree is the most powerful piece of evidence for evolution. It can be really interesting if you respond to a creationist by asking, "Gaps between what? Why do you think there is a gap there?".
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Another question, if you are up to it. Why does mathematics seem so tightly integrated with the physical universe? Is matter and energy and such actually mathematical in nature as Max Tegmark proposes? If so, how could this be so if mathematics is pure reason as Immanuel Kant proposed? I'm shy about adopting Idealism to explain this.
This goes towards philosophy. From a Hindu perspective, I believe that the physical world, the realm of math and logic, information and subjective self-awareness are four equivalently real aspects of the same underlying substrate that I call Brahman. Because they are manifestations of the same substrate, therefore they are deeply entangled with each other. Remember the blind man and elephant parable?
 
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