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Do you think that teleogy (or the need for things to have reasons or purposes) drives many people towards religion rather than more philosophical views?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Are you a secret member of Ed , Edd, n Eddy?
That's a very big and heavy question that I haven't really thought about before....
Apologies if this may be a little convoluted
In answer to your question: Yes, I do
I think there is two ways of thinking about there being a reason for something (a natural phenomenon) that exists: an explanation and a purpose and I think the two often get confused although it is possible for an account to contain elements of both
One asks WHY and the other HOW
For instance disciplines such as geology and natural history explain life on Earth and how it came to be (the HOW) but the biblical Genesis myth and the mankind as custodian idea assumes a purpose: the satisfaction of God's creative urge (the WHY)
Science = HOW and religion = WHY
They are different questions that in our culture have become mixed up and confused
But that said, there is no way of knowing God's purpose, personally I reason that there is something rather than nothing because God has a creative urge, is curious, and requires company. But of course, that is not at all scientific, but then that doesn't matter as it's not a scientific question, it cannot be investigated
It is a different category of question, it is WHY and not HOW
If you think of a thing as being made to have a purposes then that needs explaining and that can be satisfied with God
(The god of gaps?????)
I think if you believe that nothing has a purpose, that there is no WHY then that leads to atheism and bleak materialism
Matter in motion and little else
I think that if we approach reality assuming that a phenomenon (such as the universe) has a WHY then that necessitates a conscious creative agent who made it to fulfil some purpose - even if that purpose is unknown and/pr unknowable
I think that historically, people did not know HOW things came to be so concentrated on the WHY - for instance people believed that cows are made for humans to milk, and that wheat is made for humans to harvest and turn into flour
Foe millennia people have assumed they were at the heart of creation and that everything was there for their benefit. Did religion cause this or did this cause religion? I don't know, maybe a bit of both?
I think that if you take away the notion that everything has an actual purpose and was made to further some higher purpose, then that leads inevitably to a world view in which there is design, intelligence and intention
Which leads to a religious world view rather than a scientific one, as the WHY inevitably spills over into the HOW
Does the universe contain elements of design, intelligence and intention? That's a big question and personally I think that the fact that there is (undeniably) something rather than nothing leads me to believe that
I think there is a danger of confusing complexity with being created and that creationists make that mistake
Creationism is asking HOW using the methodology of WHY - it looks in holy books rather than at the actual universe itself
It uses faith rather than scientific enquiry
In my mind using a religious text as a scientific text is folly as such texts are about WHY rather than HOW, they brush over the HOW with stories that are obviously allegorical and whose purpose is to put fourth the idea that creation was created
I hope this make sense to you and thank you for asking me that question!
So yes, if you think things have been made to fulfil some purpose then that leads to a religious world view rather than a more scientific one
Yes
I'm a reserve Edward
If anything goes wrong with Ed, Edd or Eddy then I will be called in to take their place
No apologies required -- your response shows much deeper thinking than you are giving yourself credit for.That's a very big and heavy question that I haven't really thought about before....
Apologies if this may be a little convoluted
In answer to your question: Yes, I do
I think there is two ways of thinking about there being a reason for something (a natural phenomenon) that exists: an explanation and a purpose and I think the two often get confused although it is possible for an account to contain elements of both
One asks WHY and the other HOW
For instance disciplines such as geology and natural history explain life on Earth and how it came to be (the HOW) but the biblical Genesis myth and the mankind as custodian idea assumes a purpose: the satisfaction of God's creative urge (the WHY)
Science = HOW and religion = WHY
They are different questions that in our culture have become mixed up and confused
But that said, there is no way of knowing God's purpose, personally I reason that there is something rather than nothing because God has a creative urge, is curious, and requires company. But of course, that is not at all scientific, but then that doesn't matter as it's not a scientific question, it cannot be investigated
It is a different category of question, it is WHY and not HOW
If you think of a thing as being made to have a purposes then that needs explaining and that can be satisfied with God
(The god of gaps?????)
I think if you believe that nothing has a purpose, that there is no WHY then that leads to atheism and bleak materialism
Matter in motion and little else
I think that if we approach reality assuming that a phenomenon (such as the universe) has a WHY then that necessitates a conscious creative agent who made it to fulfil some purpose - even if that purpose is unknown and/pr unknowable
I think that historically, people did not know HOW things came to be so concentrated on the WHY - for instance people believed that cows are made for humans to milk, and that wheat is made for humans to harvest and turn into flour
Foe millennia people have assumed they were at the heart of creation and that everything was there for their benefit. Did religion cause this or did this cause religion? I don't know, maybe a bit of both?
I think that if you take away the notion that everything has an actual purpose and was made to further some higher purpose, then that leads inevitably to a world view in which there is design, intelligence and intention
Which leads to a religious world view rather than a scientific one, as the WHY inevitably spills over into the HOW
Does the universe contain elements of design, intelligence and intention? That's a big question and personally I think that the fact that there is (undeniably) something rather than nothing leads me to believe that
I think there is a danger of confusing complexity with being created and that creationists make that mistake
Creationism is asking HOW using the methodology of WHY - it looks in holy books rather than at the actual universe itself
It uses faith rather than scientific enquiry
In my mind using a religious text as a scientific text is folly as such texts are about WHY rather than HOW, they brush over the HOW with stories that are obviously allegorical and whose purpose is to put fourth the idea that creation was created
I hope this make sense to you and thank you for asking me that question!
So yes, if you think things have been made to fulfil some purpose then that leads to a religious world view rather than a more scientific one
Here is an example of that deep searching for teleogy -- that in my view leads to nothing much at all. Let me try to explain.
One of the "big questions," both for philosophy and for religion, is "why is there something rather than nothing?" You have provided the more "religious" answer, and honestly, I could walk you through dozens of attempts by thinkers much greater than myself who never get very close to a philosophical answer at all.
But for me, why would I bother trying to walk you through all of that, when I could just ask another question, and here it is:
"You propose that there is a God who is curious and has a creative urge and requires company, and that is the explanation for why there needed to be something rather than nothing. But that still seems to leave open the question of why there needed to be a creative, curious and lonely God, rather no god of any kind at all?"
Last edited:
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Are you an independent believer, or one who chooses a mainstream religion?
Also, do you think materialist/naturalist philosophy makes a lot of sense?
What are you doing tomorrow?
What's your favorite fast food?
I'm an independent believer although I attend services at a Christian church most Sundays
I think of myself as an unorthodox Christian, I don't believe in the Abrahamic God, I believe in a Pantheist god
I was going to train to be a worship leader and possibly later on a lay preacher but I stopped doing this as to do that would mean I'd have to uphold orthodox Christianity - which is not something I could do
I think it makes perfect sense and is entirely rational
However it doesn't address certain parts of the human condition - such as how to be a good person etc.
I think that if you want to investigate how reality works and what it is then materialism/naturalist philosophy is the way to go
I was asleep when you asked that, so it's tomorrow now!
Today I had a dentists appointment, the dentist put some kind of cement thing over where some of the surface of my teeth had been damaged
The dentist I went to is the only one locally who takes National Health Service patients, I got my treatment for free
I then went to a caffe where I had a milkshake and halloumi burger - very nice it was too!
And now I'm back home!
Fried chicken!
Here it's available on crêpes (pancakes) from market stalls, a fast food snack.
They do those at the Manchester Christmas market
Right, they do, I remember now.