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Ask the Jews

blue8

Member
Thank you all for answers. I was aware that I can expect different opinions but wanted to hear what majority think (most accepted answer). What made me ask this question was a saying I ´ve just read on one RF in my country, written by a man who is not a Jew and not a convert either, but has a great love and respect for Judaism, and actually consider it to be the only true religion, who said that "God wrote (dictated?) the Torah, and that´s the only way the Torah make sense."
While I take that as his own opinion, I wanted to find out what Jews think of that. So far (since on this RF) I have got very educated and excellent answers from both Caladan and Levite. I will take the last answer (Levite) as the most balanced. Thanks guys!
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Yesterday, I was deist. Today, I went to synagogue; found out that I was "more than welcome," come back tomorrow. Next week, we'll talk about dues. :)

I considered that my introduction to the church down the street was warmly received, having little comparative experience. I no longer have that consideration. Thusly, to begin at the end, what prevents me from conversion?
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
I have never heard of the energy theory you purpose as a reason why Jews wear head coverings. The primary reason is to remember that G-d is always watching over you. Also to some extent, it is seen as traditional and a way of (partially) giving Jewish people a unique identity.


Wow I am mesmerized by your big chin lol
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Original Christian, from the source, Paul, in Romans. Just a waypoint, as I return to the source.
I am glad you are on such a journey, and that is a just a waypoint, as please understand that for Jews, Paul is not the way to the source. It may be your way, but indeed I hope it's a short waypoint.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
So it is not "the world to come." Is there a type of afterlife in mainstream Judaism?
Yes, it's called 'Olam Haba' or 'World to Come' but it's more than just one concept. Reward in an afterlife is not the main goal of Judaism, the goal is to repair this world, that we have now. There is a 'World to Come' after the Messiah comes and brings peace, for example, that not an afterlife per se, but really a new world of man, a physical world not a spirit world. Some traditions hold that there will be a resurrection for this new physical world, so it could be thought of as an afterlife in that regard.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Yes, it's called 'Olam Haba' or 'World to Come' but it's more than just one concept. Reward in an afterlife is not the main goal of Judaism, the goal is to repair this world, that we have now. There is a 'World to Come' after the Messiah comes and brings peace, for example, that not an afterlife per se, but really a new world of man, a physical world not a spirit world. Some traditions hold that there will be a resurrection for this new physical world, so it could be thought of as an afterlife in that regard.

Interesting so it an actual celestial event or am I misunderstanding it? In this world to come, is God present in this world? Similar to the concept in revelation after the antichrist is destroyed and God supposedly dwelling among the people.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Interesting so it an actual celestial event or am I misunderstanding it? In this world to come, is God present in this world? Similar to the concept in revelation after the antichrist is destroyed and God supposedly dwelling among the people.
Not celestial, but earthly. Not like the bleak and catastrophic future of 'revelation' but a joyful and peaceful transition, if we deserve such. In the past, when we had a Temple, G-d was said to dwell among the people. The text was interesting... though G-d's Temple was his House, G-d dwelt among the People. Not in a Temple, but 'in their midst'... or... in their heart... for that is the only Temple that G-d ever really wanted... the heart of Man, that in it G-d might dwell.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Why are there seven levels of heaven? Is it allegorical? Metaphorical?

Ah, that's a good question.

Now, there's no doctrine that officially says that there are exactly seven levels to heaven.

But there is a drashah in the Talmud that speaks of seven heavens, and uses to illustrate them the seven different words or expressions that are used in the Tanakh to refer to heaven. This kind of midrash may have been popular with the Rabbis of the Talmud because there was a mystical tradition at that time called Merkavah mysticism, which centered on meditative study of certain revelatory texts, notably the first chapter of Ezekiel. Many of the great Rabbis of the Talmud were Merkavah mystics, so they held it in great esteem, and its concepts found their way into the Talmud. A concept that began to develop in Merkavah mysticism, which may have been taken from apocryphal literature of the late Second Temple period (and in turn may have come originally from Babylonian cosmology), is the idea that there are levels to heaven, with various mystical secrets at each level, and God's Presence at the highest level.

Eventually, this concept, along with much of Merkavah mysticism, developed into its own kind of Kabbalah, called Hekhalot mysticism, of which aspects in turn evolved into elements of Sefer ha-Bahir and Sefer Yetzirah, the two mystical masterworks of the medieval period. They, in turn, influenced certain elements of the Zohar, but Zoharic Kabbalah mostly wrote a whole new mystical script, and much of the anciently grounded ideas of Hekhalot mysticism and pre-Zoharic Kabbalah were lost to the new system.

So, even though today, the majority of Kabbalists focus their studies on the Zohar, or on Lurianic Kabbalah (which came after the Zohar), we still sometimes hear of pre-Zoharic ideas, especially those which were adopted by medieval Christian mystics, of which the seven heavens were one.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Yes, it's called 'Olam Haba' or 'World to Come' but it's more than just one concept. Reward in an afterlife is not the main goal of Judaism, the goal is to repair this world, that we have now. There is a 'World to Come' after the Messiah comes and brings peace, for example, that not an afterlife per se, but really a new world of man, a physical world not a spirit world. Some traditions hold that there will be a resurrection for this new physical world, so it could be thought of as an afterlife in that regard.

With nothing but respect, this actually presents a classic example of the tendency in Jewish tradition to conflate two different ideas: part "z'man ha-mashiach" or the world after the mashiach comes, and part "olam ha-ba," the world to come, which is more of a celestial afterlife type of deal.

To be fair, this confusion or conflation is endemic in the system: one can see examples of it as far back as Gaonic times, and some say it can be seen in late Amoraic parts of the Gemara, though I am less than convinced about that. I think a lot of people, rabbis included, sometimes tended to lump things like "mashiach," "Judgment Day," "olam ha-ba" all together into a category of stuff that was going to happen a long, long time in the future. And the boundaries became less than clear what was going to happen at what point.

To make things more confusing, of course, the earlier Rabbis of the Talmud believed in a very physical understanding of "techiyat hametim" (which can be translated either "resurrection of the dead" or "giving life to the dead"), wherein when the dead were given life after death, it wasn't going to be until the end of time, and they would be physically resurrected, given bodies, and would physically live in the perfected world. But the idea of physical resurrection became ever more problematic as people gained philosophical sophistication, until by the time of the Rambam, its defenders were clinging hard to the idea, but one can easily see that Rambam hates it, and gives it nothing but the briefest lip service. And it really doesn't survive more than a couple hundred years after him.

The longer we went on distancing ourselves from physical resurrection, the more confused everything became, until sometimes it was hard to tell that there were two ideas: the perfected, messianic world; and the afterlife of the eternal soul. Sometimes even in the works of great rabbis today, this kind of confusion is still evident-- it's not a result of ignorance on anyone's part, but of centuries of crossed philosophical wires.

I have said before on many an occasion elsewhere that it would behoove us to sort this out. Because while I have no problem believing in mashiach, or in a messianic world, I don't believe that such a world will result in its inhabitants having eternal life, or even necessarily freedom from trials and tribulations. But I also do believe in the idea that, after our souls are finished with their journeys, and have learned sufficient wisdom, and have taught sufficient wisdom, and have balanced the scales of our sins and our merits, we can find eternal peace and rest and reward in place not in this plane of existence, where, being less obscured from God's presence, there are answers for our questions, and we can find again those we have lost.

But in any case, you're 100% right, Z, that these things should all be very secondary, and our primary concerns should involve being good people here and now, and how to better relate to other human beings, and how to bring justice and mercy into the world more fully.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Not celestial, but earthly. Not like the bleak and catastrophic future of 'revelation' but a joyful and peaceful transition, if we deserve such. In the past, when we had a Temple, G-d was said to dwell among the people. The text was interesting... though G-d's Temple was his House, G-d dwelt among the People. Not in a Temple, but 'in their midst'... or... in their heart... for that is the only Temple that G-d ever really wanted... the heart of Man, that in it G-d might dwell.

That is interesting....so I would assume this earthly event would be experienced by everyone no matter where they are.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Thank you all for answers. I was aware that I can expect different opinions but wanted to hear what majority think (most accepted answer). What made me ask this question was a saying I ´ve just read on one RF in my country, written by a man who is not a Jew and not a convert either, but has a great love and respect for Judaism, and actually consider it to be the only true religion, who said that "God wrote (dictated?) the Torah, and that´s the only way the Torah make sense."
While I take that as his own opinion, I wanted to find out what Jews think of that. So far (since on this RF) I have got very educated and excellent answers from both Caladan and Levite. I will take the last answer (Levite) as the most balanced. Thanks guys!

I think it's helpful to bear in mind that there is no one Jewish position on anything. We have a saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." It's not like Catholicism or LDS. No one person is in charge. Each Jew has, and is entitled to, his or her own view on this and everything else.

That being said, I think the most traditional view is that Moses (Moshe) wrote the Torah. Secular scholars do not accept this.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Yesterday, I was deist. Today, I went to synagogue; found out that I was "more than welcome," come back tomorrow. Next week, we'll talk about dues. :)

I considered that my introduction to the church down the street was warmly received, having little comparative experience. I no longer have that consideration. Thusly, to begin at the end, what prevents me from conversion?

It's a process that requires study. I suggest that you investigate long enough to determine which denomination of Judaism you are most interested in, and then approach a rabbi of that denomination.
 
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