Ask the Jews

[Levite]

I have heard that there is a clause with conversions done in Israel.Something about them not being valid outside of Israel.
As well as rumor that Jewish conversions done in New York may not be totally valid within Israel.
It's that east hemisphere/west hemisphere thing.

What you're referring to, I think, is a statement by the Rabbanut (chief rabbinate of Israel) that it will only accept conversions from certain rabbis outside of Israel (inside of Israel, it will accept conversions done by its own rabbis, and by pretty much all Haredi rabbis, but not necessarily all modern Orthodox rabbis not affiliated with the Rabbanut, and not any Masorti/Conservative or Reform rabbis). The rabbis from whom they will accept conversions outside of Israel are a fairly narrow list of Haredi rabbis-- they won't even accept all conversions done by members of the OU or the RCA, which are the two largest Orthodox rabbinical organizations in the US. It's ridiculous. Insane. Just one more reason why the Rabbanut should be dismantled, IMO.

It's less an east/west hemisphere thing, and more a Haredi/non-Haredi thing. Goes completely against the predominate halakhic tradition, too, FWIW: the majority of the tradition says that conversions should be accepted unless there is specific prima facie evidence that very specific kinds of improprieties were committed, or unless there is specific prima facie evidence that circumcision/hatafat dam brit and/or mikveh was done absolutely improperly.

Tarheeler at least you realise that it doesnt make sense to do a giyur that leaves out the stuff the congregation doesnt like.

This is really one of those topics where iam as orthodox as it gets.

I know what you're saying, Flankerl. But these days, Orthodox doesn't always mean a more halakhic conversion, and the Reform movement has no monopoly on twisting the laws of conversion to suit themselves.

While many Reform rabbis simply don't follow the minimum halakhic norms at all (which is bad enough), it is actually the majority of Orthodoxy that is now adding completely superfluous and halakhically improper requirements onto conversion, that should not be asked, and treating converts with complete impropriety according to the halakhah (which, to my mind, is just as bad).

It is becoming increasingly common in many Orthodox communities, for example, to require incredibly specific ****ot (interpretive opinions and customs) from converts, which has never been part of hilkhot giyur (the laws of conversion) previously. Or there are demands that converts remain living in proximity to their sponsoring rabbi for a measure of time (six months, a year, even two years) after conversion, to ensure that the converts do not "relapse;" which is completely halakhically improper-- there is nothing in the law that supports doing this. I have even heard of people who converted Orthodox, became Conservative, and then were notified that because of that, their conversion was being retroactively invalidated-- something that can only be done in halakhah if it is found that the Bet Din (rabbinical court) was somehow invalid themselves, or if the immersion in the mikveh was not done halakhically properly, or (in the case of a man) if there was no kosher circumcision/hatafat dam brit (consecration of pre-existing circumcision). And I could go on, with even more improprieties and un-halakhic twistings of conversion....

My point is that these day, one can speak of conversions that are accepted by more or by fewer communities, but those may not have anything to do with how halakhically correct the conversion itself was.

I think it is better to look for adherence to the basic halakhic forms, rather than presuming that the stricter the process is, and the more requirements there are, the better the conversion must be.

 

[Rakhel]

What you're referring to, I think, is a statement by the Rabbanut (chief rabbinate of Israel) that it will only accept conversions from certain rabbis outside of Israel (inside of Israel, it will accept conversions done by its own rabbis, and by pretty much all Haredi rabbis, but not necessarily all modern Orthodox rabbis not affiliated with the Rabbanut, and not any Masorti/Conservative or Reform rabbis). The rabbis from whom they will accept conversions outside of Israel are a fairly narrow list of Haredi rabbis-- they won't even accept all conversions done by members of the OU or the RCA, which are the two largest Orthodox rabbinical organizations in the US. It's ridiculous. Insane. Just one more reason why the Rabbanut should be dismantled, IMO.

It's less an east/west hemisphere thing, and more a Haredi/non-Haredi thing. Goes completely against the predominate halakhic tradition, too, FWIW: the majority of the tradition says that conversions should be accepted unless there is specific prima facie evidence that very specific kinds of improprieties were committed, or unless there is specific prima facie evidence that circumcision/hatafat dam brit and/or mikveh was done absolutely improperly.

That's exactly what I'm referring to.

It is becoming increasingly common in many Orthodox communities, for example, to require incredibly specific ****ot (interpretive opinions and customs) from converts, which has never been part of hilkhot giyur (the laws of conversion) previously. Or there are demands that converts remain living in proximity to their sponsoring rabbi for a measure of time (six months, a year, even two years) after conversion, to ensure that the converts do not "relapse;" which is completely halakhically improper-- there is nothing in the law that supports doing this. I have even heard of people who converted Orthodox, became Conservative, and then were notified that because of that, their conversion was being retroactively invalidated-- something that can only be done in halakhah if it is found that the Bet Din (rabbinical court) was somehow invalid themselves, or if the immersion in the mikveh was not done halakhically properly, or (in the case of a man) if there was no kosher circumcision/hatafat dam brit (consecration of pre-existing circumcision). And I could go on, with even more improprieties and un-halakhic twistings of conversion....

This happened with Rabbi Druckman's converts. One lady, after 15 years, was told she was no longer Jewish(which is asnine) because she no longer practiced orthodoxy. This ruling even nullified her children.

 

[Levite]

This happened with Rabbi Druckman's converts. One lady, after 15 years, was told she was no longer Jewish(which is asnine) because she no longer practiced orthodoxy. This ruling even nullified her children.

Sickening. It's a shondeh (a shame and a curse). Not only is such a thing completely un-halakhic, but it violates innumerable longstanding halakhic principles that one judges the validity of a conversion entirely on the facts of the conversion ritual, and never on the behavior of the convert afterward. Not to mention that it causes unnecessary grief and suffering to converts, which is strictly prohibited.

And I can't help but notice that while these rabbis are zealous to invalidate the conversions of people who are no longer Orthodox (or no longer Haredi), or people whose adult children will not convert with them, or whose non-Orthodox in-laws intermarry, or things of that sort, there doesn't seem to be any movement toward equal zealousness to invalidate the conversions of those (or expel baalei teshuvah) who abuse their wives or kids, or who cheat their employees, or defraud the government, or compromise the safety of their workers, or steal, or commit adultery, or sell drugs, or refuse to give their estranged wives gittin (halakhic divorces), or any of a thousand things which are far more serious than merely taking a different set of halakhic opinions, or even committing the minor violations of hilkhot shabbat or kashrut that are common to non-Orthodox practice.

Nothing infuriates me more than this sort of thing. It is a horrific perversion of Torah, making Judaism into avodah zarah.

 

[Rakhel]

Sickening. It's a shondeh (a shame and a curse). Not only is such a thing completely un-halakhic, but it violates innumerable longstanding halakhic principles that one judges the validity of a conversion entirely on the facts of the conversion ritual, and never on the behavior of the convert afterward. Not to mention that it causes unnecessary grief and suffering to converts, which is strictly prohibited.

And I can't help but notice that while these rabbis are zealous to invalidate the conversions of people who are no longer Orthodox (or no longer Haredi), or people whose adult children will not convert with them, or whose non-Orthodox in-laws intermarry, or things of that sort, there doesn't seem to be any movement toward equal zealousness to invalidate the conversions of those (or expel baalei teshuvah) who abuse their wives or kids, or who cheat their employees, or defraud the government, or compromise the safety of their workers, or steal, or commit adultery, or sell drugs, or refuse to give their estranged wives gittin (halakhic divorces), or any of a thousand things which are far more serious than merely taking a different set of halakhic opinions, or even committing the minor violations of hilkhot shabbat or kashrut that are common to non-Orthodox practice.

Nothing infuriates me more than this sort of thing. It is a horrific perversion of Torah, making Judaism into avodah zarah.

Conversions are a touchy subject for me anyway. My views concerning them differ from most rabbis, and have my husband usually cringing when the subject does come up, as I can be quite argumentative about it.

 

[Harmonious]

I really don't know why they weren't included. One thing worthy of note: The Chumash, which the Orthodox put more weight to than a Tanach, only has four Megillot, as opposed to a more complete collection of Kethuvim.

FIVE Megillot:

Esther, Song of Songs, Ruth, Ecclesiastes, and Lamentations.

 

[Levite]

FIVE Megillot:

Esther, Song of Songs, Ruth, Ecclesiastes, and Lamentations.

Some chumashim don't include Esther, since people are often accustomed to read the Megillah separately, from pamphlets or suchlike, which are less of a loss if they must be condemned to be shemot due to inadvertent damage from Purim revelry.

It happens....

 

[Zardoz]

Some chumashim don't include Esther, since people are often accustomed to read the Megillah separately, from pamphlets or suchlike, which are less of a loss if they must be condemned to be shemot due to inadvertent damage from Purim revelry.

It happens....

Yes, indeed...

Not that I remember.... :drunk:

 

[fahrenheit]

Excuse me for the ignorance, and pardon me if they've been asked before but I have some questions;

I have heard from some Jewish members on this forum, and also in media, that the Jewish people do not necessarily believe in an afterlife? How true is this, I know that the Jewish faith says that there is no Hell or Satan, but what about Heaven or an existence after death?

What kind of role do non Israelite Jews (as in people that cannot trace themselves to God's chosen people) play in your culture/community? I know that they are not belittled in any way, but reading from scripture Israel is God's chosen people, and it seems that (again, from my understanding of scripture) that marker is passed down by birth. Are non Israelites who are Jewish also considered part of God's chosen people?

Last one for now, how much is scripture meant to be taken literally (according to Jewish faith). I've heard some Jewish members describe passages as more or less symbolic and may not have actually happened. How much in line with Jewish teaching is this, and I guess generally how literally do you believe you are supposed to interpret the text?

Thanks for the answers, and again I apologize if these questions have already been asked.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I have heard from some Jewish members on this forum, and also in media, that the Jewish people do not necessarily believe in an afterlife? How true is this, I know that the Jewish faith says that there is no Hell or Satan, but what about Heaven or an existence after death?

This is a situation of: "Ask two Jews, get three opinions".

What kind of role do non Israelite Jews (as in people that cannot trace themselves to God's chosen people) play in your culture/community? I know that they are not belittled in any way, but reading from scripture Israel is God's chosen people, and it seems that (again, from my understanding of scripture) that marker is passed down by birth. Are non Israelites who are Jewish also considered part of God's chosen people?

Here's the thing: Jews are the remainder of Am Yisrael(the people of Israel). Even those who aren't the biological descendants are Am Yisrael. If you have any doubt the validity of converts among the people, I suggest you read the story of Ruth(King David's great-grandmother).

Last one for now, how much is scripture meant to be taken literally (according to Jewish faith). I've heard some Jewish members describe passages as more or less symbolic and may not have actually happened. How much in line with Jewish teaching is this, and I guess generally how literally do you believe you are supposed to interpret the text?

This is another instance of "Ask two Jews, get three opinions."

 

[Levite]

I have heard from some Jewish members on this forum, and also in media, that the Jewish people do not necessarily believe in an afterlife? How true is this, I know that the Jewish faith says that there is no Hell or Satan, but what about Heaven or an existence after death?

As yosi mentioned, this is very much a matter of debate amongst Jews. Judaism is a religion that permits many different opinions in most matter, so it is not necessarily a matter of sectarian division, but there is no universal agreement on how to define matters of the afterlife. Most Jews do believe in some form of the eternality of the soul, but exactly what that might be is subject to considerable interpretation. Historically, the majority of Rabbinic Jews have believed in a kind of Heaven-like afterworld called Olam ha-Ba ("The World To Come"), but not all have believed so, and some conflate Olam ha-Ba with the messianic age, for one reason or another, and have separate beliefs about afterlife.

To be honest, afterlife has never been a major focus of Judaism, which is much more concerned about actions in this world. But statistically, most Jews have usually professed some sort of afterlife belief. If you want more details on some of the various ideas that have come up, we can get into that, but there are a lot of them.

What kind of role do non Israelite Jews (as in people that cannot trace themselves to God's chosen people) play in your culture/community? I know that they are not belittled in any way, but reading from scripture Israel is God's chosen people, and it seems that (again, from my understanding of scripture) that marker is passed down by birth. Are non Israelites who are Jewish also considered part of God's chosen people?

Here's the thing. There are no non-Israelite Jews. If one converts to Judaism, one is totally and completely adopted into the Jewish People, with standing entirely equal to one born of a Jewish mother. The Jews are the Children of Abraham, and anyone who converts to Judaism takes on as their Hebrew name "so-and-so son/daughter of Abraham and Sarah," signifying that they have become as much Children of Abraham as any other Jew.

Some even say that converts are Jewish souls born into non-Jewish families, who have found their way back to the fold, and that they (like all the Jewish souls who ever would be) were also present at Sinai for the giving of the Torah and the establishment of the covenant.

Last one for now, how much is scripture meant to be taken literally (according to Jewish faith). I've heard some Jewish members describe passages as more or less symbolic and may not have actually happened. How much in line with Jewish teaching is this, and I guess generally how literally do you believe you are supposed to interpret the text?

Judaism is not a religion of literalism. Even ultra-Orthodox (fundamentalist) Jews do not read the Written Torah at its simplest, apparently literal meaning, but understand the text in light of the clarification of the Oral Torah. We are taught that there are infinite levels of meaning to the text of the Written Torah, and it is only through the guidance of the Oral Torah that we can understand which of those many meanings may be the correct one for practical application at any given time. And many passages need not be taken in any way literally, ever; there is also a Rabbinic maxim that states dibra Torah ki'l'shon b'nai adam, which is to say "The Torah speaks as people are accustomed to speak." Which means that the Torah uses metaphor, simile, word-play, analogy, hyperbole, imagery, idiom, and parable in order to teach us its lessons.

Also, part of the purpose of the Oral Torah is to provide a constant, continuous, ever-evolving understanding of the Written Torah, so that we never risk our theology, our understanding of the commandments, our interpretations becoming stale, antiquated, and unusable. But that means that we must see Torah as a whole thing (Written and Oral together, inextricably), and thus Written Torah can never be taken 100% literally in the sense that biblical literalism works, because that would mean reading the Written Torah in the absence of the Oral Torah.

 

[fahrenheit]

Thanks for the responses! So there is an oral Torah as well as an written one? Are they different in any way, could you point me to a good resource about understanding the oral Torah?

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Thanks for the responses! So there is an oral Torah as well as an written one? Are they different in any way, could you point me to a good resource about understanding the oral Torah?

Think of the Written Torah as the headlines of a newspaper or chapter headers of a book. The Oral Torah is the rest of the text. As far as a resource, I recommend you seek guidance from a Rabbi of the Orthodox persuasion.(not a Messianic)

 

[Levite]

Thanks for the responses! So there is an oral Torah as well as an written one? Are they different in any way, could you point me to a good resource about understanding the oral Torah?

Think of the Written Torah as the headlines of a newspaper or chapter headers of a book. The Oral Torah is the rest of the text. As far as a resource, I recommend you seek guidance from a Rabbi of the Orthodox persuasion.(not a Messianic)

Yosi's analogy is very apt. That's a good way to put it.

As for resources, obviously, talking to a rabbi would be good-- a Conservative one ought to do just as well as an Orthodox one, but a Reform one won't help you much on this topic, since Reform Judaism has untraditional beliefs about Torah.

I've had some occasion to briefly discuss the Oral Torah in these posts right here....

If you want to read some of the real serious stuff on the subject, I recommend the writings of Rabbi Elliot Dorff.

 

[TheKnight]

The only thing that worries me is finishing the process and then finding out nobody accepts it.

I have a similar concern as I'm currently looking for a sponsoring Rabbi. What sort of puts my mind at ease though is Isaiah 56:6-8

"Also the aliens, that join themselves to the LORD, to minister unto Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast by My covenant: Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be acceptable upon Mine altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Saith the Lord GOD who gathereth the dispersed of Israel: Yet I will gather others to him, beside those of him that are gathered. "

Conversions are a touchy subject for me anyway. My views concerning them differ from most rabbis, and have my husband usually cringing when the subject does come up, as I can be quite argumentative about it.

If you don't mind me asking, what are your differing views of conversion?

Excuse me for the ignorance, and pardon me if they've been asked before but I have some questions;

I have heard from some Jewish members on this forum, and also in media, that the Jewish people do not necessarily believe in an afterlife? How true is this, I know that the Jewish faith says that there is no Hell or Satan, but what about Heaven or an existence after death?

As Levite said, it really all depends on the opinion you follow. I, personally, don't believe in a permanent spiritual afterlife.

This is because I lean towards the view of Nachmanides: that Olam Haba (the world to come) refers to a heightened and refined state of being here in Olam HaZe (this world).

I sort of take it to the extreme in that I don't believe in a permanent spiritual afterlife at all. I believe that with death comes judgment from HaShem (I see this more as being an assessment of how we did during our lifetime) and then we wait in "Gan Eden" temporarily for Olam Haba, which would start with our resurrection from the dead.

Even more "off the beaten path", like the Rambam (but more extreme I suppose), I do not believe there will be one miraculous super-figure who will usher in the Messianic age. I believe that the Messianic age (and perhaps even the resurrection itself) will be an accomplishment of humanity. It will be the ultimate result of humanity's cooperative effort with HaShem to create the world described as Olam Haba by the Ramban.

If I were asked why I think this way, my simple answer would be that I take the idea of Dirah Betachtonim (Heaven on Earth) to the utter extreme. It is this idea, among others, that will probably forever keep me attracted to Hasidut.

In any case, I still accept the opinions of those Rabbis far greater than I as being valid ones. It's just that on a personal level I disagree.

 

[Rakhel]

WOW
I was just talking to my husband about wondering if anyone was going to ask me about that.

I understand why things have become as strict as they have as far as the process goes. I truly do. I understand that it is because there were those that were coming into a community saying they were Jewish only to turn around and attempt to convert everyone else to Christianity.
However, I think we have become too aggressive in our...decision making process.
I think rabbis, some, not all, have developed this idea that you are not Jewish unless they say so. As if they, themselves, have become G-d. That they are making you Jewish.
I do not feel that it is their place to say how Jewish one can or cannot be. They can only say whether or not you are living a Jewish lifestyle and help you to assimilate into that culture, but they have no say so on your Jewishness.
I am Jewish not because a rabbi made me Jewish. I am Jewish because G-d insisted that I be Jewish.

 

[xkatz]

However, I think we have become too aggressive in our...decision making process.
I think rabbis, some, not all, have developed this idea that you are not Jewish unless they say so. As if they, themselves, have become G-d. That they are making you Jewish.
I do not feel that it is their place to say how Jewish one can or cannot be. They can only say whether or not you are living a Jewish lifestyle and help you to assimilate into that culture, but they have no say so on your Jewishness.
I am Jewish not because a rabbi made me Jewish. I am Jewish because G-d insisted that I be Jewish.

I agree. The Rabbi or any other person in the Jewish community should not have a monoply on saying who is Jewish and who isn't. It's ultimately up to the individual and HaShem. I think the current approach is a little too rigid. I like the approach Indian religions make- if you believe in X,Y,Z and have a sincere practice, then you are an adherent to the faith.

 

[Rakhel]

One of my husband's friends had to convert 3 times before his conversion was accepted. I mean that is a little ridiculous.

We used to rely on Ruth's statement "Your G-d is my G-d, your people are my people." There was no court to dictate "you are not Jewish enough to be Jewish. There was just that statement.

Later it was written in the Talmud that there were only 3 elements to conversion: Circumcision, immersion in the Mikveh, and acceptance of the Mitvoh.
Caro is even quoted as saying, "If they (the judges) didn’t check his motivations for converting, or if they didn’t inform him of the rewards and punishments for the commandments, and he was circumcised and immersed in a mikveh in the presence of three lay people (not an official rabbinical court), he is still considered a convert, even if later on we find out that he did convert because of an ulterior motive (for example, in order to marry a Jewish woman). Since he was circumcised and immersed, he is no longer a non-Jew… Even if he returns to idol worship he is as an apostate Jew who can contract valid marriages.”(Yore De’ah 268:12)

Now like Levite said, there is so much more to being a new Jew it isn't funny. You must live near the rabbi converting you, some demand you eat what they eat, live as they live, wear what they tell you to wear, and if you slip even once, any time after you convert, then you couldn't have been all that sincere in the first place, so guess what, your not Jewish anymore.

It's no wonder so many potential converts get disgusted with the idea of being a Jew and resign themselves to the term Righteous Gentile. Not that there is anything wrong with being a Righteous Gentile, but if Hashem is the one telling you you are Jewish(and one knows when they are) who in the hell gave these rabbis the right to tell you Hashem was wrong??

Now everyone must be perfect in their practice and everyone must act and dress the same way in order to retain the rabbis' "stamp of approval." Shietels and skirts and suits all in black. The cookie cutter Jew which makes one more attractive to being victimized and harassed. But if you don't conform to this lifestyle....
enough of my rant.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Technically, his conversion is still not valid in Israel, but I digress.

A few things I find absolutely irritating these days: G-D forbid you advocate that the Jewish community defend itself, else you be shunned as Rav Kahane.

Never do anything to protect Israel or the Jews living there, else you be abandoned as Jonathan Pollard.

 

[Zardoz]

...It's no wonder so many potential converts get disgusted with the idea of being a Jew and resign themselves to the term Righteous Gentile...

Or, they come to the Reform. I hold workshops and council many Reform Gerim, as part of our Outreach committee. Many are ex-O proselytes who just got sick and tired of the whole runaround.

 

[fahrenheit]

I've had some occasion to briefly discuss the Oral Torah in these posts right here....

Thank you for the information.