Aspirations

[Thief]

I aspire to the power of creation.
Self denial is a discipline required.

 

[Pudding]

I aspire to the power of creation.
Self denial is a discipline required.

What creation do you mean? What kind of power from this creation do you mean?

Self denial in what aspect?

Discipline required for what?

Can you elaborate it in a clear and understandable way without the style of confusing and unclear metaphor?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I aspire to the power of creation.
Self denial is a discipline required.

If self denial is required, you would then have to deny yourself these powers of creation.
And if you somehow managed to get gain access through denial, it would be like someone who has never used heroin taking a dose for someone who built up years of a tolerance level.

 

[Thief]

If self denial is required, you would then have to deny yourself these powers of creation.
And if you somehow managed to get gain access through denial, it would be like someone who has never used heroin taking a dose for someone who built up years of a tolerance level.

You can't hand creation to someone given to his own desire.
ALL desire must be controlled.

 

[Wu Wei]

All desire much be understood as it applies to self and those around you...thereby no need for control... If that is not possible then one may need outside assistance, be that priest, minister, guru, yogi, sifu, sensei, lama, psychologist, counselor, or good friend.

I am not trying to change anything you do if you feel that is working for you, but from my point of view the need for denial says you do not trust yourself and that there are acts that you wish to commit and things you wish to do that you see as morally distasteful. This, to me, is suppression and that is far from healthy and all denial dies is make this desires stronger and sooner or latter they will come out in one way or another. Been there, done that, with anger..... denial and suppression only create blind rage.... other things suppressed things will also force their way to the surface one way or another

 

[Thief]

All desire much be understood as it applies to self and those around you...thereby no need for control... If that is not possible then one may need outside assistance, be that priest, minister, guru, yogi, sifu, sensei, lama, psychologist, counselor, or good friend.

I am not trying to change anything you do if you feel that is working for you, but from my point of view the need for denial says you do not trust yourself and that there are acts that you wish to commit and things you wish to do that you see as morally distasteful. This, to me, is suppression and that is far from healthy and all denial dies is make this desires stronger and sooner or latter they will come out in one way or another. Been there, done that, with anger..... denial and suppression only create blind rage.... other things suppressed things will also force their way to the surface one way or another

Hence the need for self control.

I say the mind should lead and the heart should follow.
and unbridled heart is fickle.

Reflex can get out of hand.
study of the martial art can show you, how a skilled fighter can use your own reflexes to his advantage.

and yes, choking down an emotion only to have it rise again.....
still further cause to watch that id, in the back of the room.
so to speak.

 

[Blastcat]

You're looking for rationale. Morals are about feelings, feelings aren't necessarily rational.

Well, feelings by definition aren't rational.

Doing "whatever feels good" isn't what i would describe as a very advanced form of morality. I think we can do a little bit better than that..and in MOST civilized societies.. we do. Much better than going on feelings.

HOWEVER,

That isn't what I was talking about.

Thief tells us that we should deny ourselves without saying WHY it's a good idea to do so.

HE tells us this WITHOUT SAYING WHY.. he doesn't GIVE any reason.. he just asserts it.

That's what I meant about no reason. He gives NO EXPLANATION for his assertion that it's somehow BETTER to deny ourselves than not.

Don't get me wrong.. he can say whatever he likes.
But I see NO reasoning at all.

As for his feelings in the matter?
He has feelings. How nice.

I don't like the feeling of being controlled

Ok. It's not a nice feeling. I don't like it either.
Your point?

Do you think your stuff "controls" you?

Good for you. I've had a lot of TVs die on me. TV was your example. Object wear out, accidents happen. Yeah if you just bought the latest and greatest TV and you lose it in a fire you don't think you might be unhappy about it. If not then you're unattached like me and we are on the same page.

Oh, I'm attached to my toys.. that's why I GOT THEM in the first place. Because I like them.
So, yeah. If I lose my toys, I'm unhappy.

So, your SOLUTION to not losing something is to never get it in the first place.
Great.

I'll enjoy my toys and you enjoy not having toys to lose.
Now, were both pretty happy.

And yes, we don't have to be UNDULY "attached" to our toys.
BUT .. if you are like ME.. I worked HARD for the money I purchased my toys with.

The toys represent HARD WORK.

Only if you had to have it

Who says we have to have toys?
But toys are fun.

They are nice to have. I don't think ANYONE "has to have" a TV.
It's a pleasure, not a real NEED.

I didn't watch TV for 30 years. Nothing bad happened to me.
I missed a few TV shows and some news.
Big deal.

I spent that time reading, instead.

Well there you go. I don't like having my happiness being attached to stuff. You're fine with it

I don't know why you insist on using words like "attached" and so on. It almost makes it sound like I NEED more than I actually need.
But I like my toys.

I like other things in life too.. but I like my toys.
I don't feel "attached" to my toys.

I am "attached" more to people.. but toys or objects .. I have fun with them.. I don't have feelings for them, generally. At least, not stuff like a shinny new TV.

If my shinny new TV broke tomorrow.. I would decide if I wanted to replace it or not.. but I wouldn't pretend that it was a like a friend I had lost. We don't have to go crazy here.

Its like I'll have to be depressed for years if the TV breaks and go to some TV cemetery to put flowers on it's grave?

I don't THINK so.

I haven't always had a roof over my head, I don't want to depend on having one for my happiness.

Sorry to hear that you didn't always have a roof over your head. Must have been harsh.
I'd say that shelter is one of our human basic NEEDS.. more than just a toy.
Seriously. Homelessness isn't a joke.

Look, maybe homeless people can STILL be happy IN SPITE of not having adequate shelter.. But let's not pretend that shelter isn't an important NEED that people do have.

I think that when you DID finally get adequate housing, you were happy for it.
I'm happy to think that you have shelter now.

And we CAN get attached to our homes.
A lot of people DO get attached to their homes.. that's where their FAMILY lived and so on.. stories.. history.. lives ... precious moments... a sense of pride and so on.

Maybe that's what you mean. Maybe you don't want to feel these kinds of feelings, in case you might LOSE them one day.
But I would say that these ARE GOOD THINGS to feel.. and that everyone should be so lucky.

Sadly, this is not the case.
BUT somehow pretending that we should DENY ourselves adequate shelter?
Weird to me.

I would NEVER deny anyone adequate shelter .. including MYSELF.. I'm a person, too.

They are a pleasure when they are there. What happens when they are not there. Is your pleasure gone?

Yes, when the pleasure is gone, the pleasure is gone.
What is your point?

Maybe you've always have these things, I haven't. I don't think life guarantees that the material things we want will always be available.

Nope, I haven't always had the things that I have.
Sometimes in my life I had way MORE than I do now.. and sometimes I had way less.

And no. OF COURSE "life" doesn't guarantee ANYTHING..
Does that mean that we should DENY ourselves what we can have and enjoy?

I don't see any REASON to do so.

Thief didn't tell us his reasons.. and so far, neither have you.

You SEEM to fear losing things more than enjoying them.
So, you stop yourself from having enjoyment.

Bravo?

BUT what else does this accomplish?
Other than pride..

Because you can endure some deprivation?

Bravo for that, too?

I don't need a lot of these things for pleasure. So it's not about denying any pleasures in life. It's about being able to find pleasure in life regardless of your circumstances.

Well, that's great. It's important to be able to find happiness in life.
Pleasure is a good thing, pretty much by DEFINITION.. more pleasure to you.

So you DON'T deny yourself pleasures.
Great, why should you? I don't either.

I'm NOT sure that Thief does, either.
Talks the talk.. for sure. WALK THE TALK?

Not convinced.

BUT Thief WAS talking about how great it was to deny ourselves pleasures.
He didn't explain why or how that works.

And neither have you.

 

[Wu Wei]

Hence the need for self control.

I say the mind should lead and the heart should follow.
and unbridled heart is fickle.

Reflex can get out of hand.
study of the martial art can show you, how a skilled fighter can use your own reflexes to his advantage.

and yes, choking down an emotion only to have it rise again.....
still further cause to watch that id, in the back of the room.
so to speak.

But desire does not come from the heart, it comes from the mind...it appears that we do not agree, but that is ok, your way is your way and my way is mine

 

[Nakosis]

Don't get me wrong.. he can say whatever he likes.
But I see NO reasoning at all.

As for his feelings in the matter?
He has feelings. How nice.

I suspect I could answer for Thief but probably shouldn't

Ok. It's not a nice feeling. I don't like it either.
Your point?

Like anyone else, I think, I'd prefer to avoid the the not nice feelings.

Do you think your stuff "controls" you?

No, however yes I think some people allow objects to control them. Do you think people should let objects control them? If not then we are in agreement.

Oh, I'm attached to my toys.. that's why I GOT THEM in the first place. Because I like them.
So, yeah. If I lose my toys, I'm unhappy.

So, your SOLUTION to not losing something is to never get it in the first place.
Great.

I'll enjoy my toys and you enjoy not having toys to lose.
Now, were both pretty happy.

And yes, we don't have to be UNDULY "attached" to our toys.
BUT .. if you are like ME.. I worked HARD for the money I purchased my toys with.

The toys represent HARD WORK.



Who says we have to have toys?
But toys are fun.

They are nice to have. I don't think ANYONE "has to have" a TV.
It's a pleasure, not a real NEED.

I didn't watch TV for 30 years. Nothing bad happened to me.
I missed a few TV shows and some news.
Big deal.

I spent that time reading, instead.

Right, things come and go. The less attachment you have the easier it is to let go of something and find pleasure elsewhere.

I don't know why you insist on using words like "attached" and so on. It almost makes it sound like I NEED more than I actually need.
But I like my toys.

I like other things in life too.. but I like my toys.
I don't feel "attached" to my toys.

I am "attached" more to people.. but toys or objects .. I have fun with them.. I don't have feelings for them, generally. At least, not stuff like a shinny new TV.

If my shinny new TV broke tomorrow.. I would decide if I wanted to replace it or not.. but I wouldn't pretend that it was a like a friend I had lost. We don't have to go crazy here.

Its like I'll have to be depressed for years if the TV breaks and go to some TV cemetery to put flowers on it's grave?

I don't THINK so.

This is the sense that I am using it

attached
to bind by ties of affection or regard

To like or have a fondness for.

Sorry to hear that you didn't always have a roof over your head. Must have been harsh.
I'd say that shelter is one of our human basic NEEDS.. more than just a toy.
Seriously. Homelessness isn't a joke.

Look, maybe homeless people can STILL be happy IN SPITE of not having adequate shelter.. But let's not pretend that shelter isn't an important NEED that people do have.

I think that when you DID finally get adequate housing, you were happy for it.
I'm happy to think that you have shelter now.

And we CAN get attached to our homes.
A lot of people DO get attached to their homes.. that's where their FAMILY lived and so on.. stories.. history.. lives ... precious moments... a sense of pride and so on.

Maybe that's what you mean. Maybe you don't want to feel these kinds of feelings, in case you might LOSE them one day.
But I would say that these ARE GOOD THINGS to feel.. and that everyone should be so lucky.

Sadly, this is not the case.
BUT somehow pretending that we should DENY ourselves adequate shelter?
Weird to me.

I don't see it as denying anything. Just I don't know whats coming up around the corner right? So I don't want any attachments I might have interfering with my ability to find pleasure in each moment of life. Just like you said, no TV you read a book.

I would NEVER deny anyone adequate shelter .. including MYSELF.. I'm a person, too.

Some people would. My parents abandon me when I was a kid. I lived in the woods and stole for food. I'm not saying that for sympathy, just so you might understand that I'd have a different outlook on life than you.

Yes, when the pleasure is gone, the pleasure is gone.
What is your point?

Just that, attachment to things that are no longer available to you is not beneficial. If you can adapt as easily as you seem to be saying it is for you then I assume you understand why attachment to things which are no longer available to you can be a problem.

Nope, I haven't always had the things that I have.
Sometimes in my life I had way MORE than I do now.. and sometimes I had way less.

And no. OF COURSE "life" doesn't guarantee ANYTHING..
Does that mean that we should DENY ourselves what we can have and enjoy?

I don't see any REASON to do so.

Me either. I see attachment as an unwillingness to let go of what has been lost. You seem to be implying that you don't see this as a good idea either.

Thief didn't tell us his reasons.. and so far, neither have you.

Like I said, I'd rather let Thief explain his own reason. As for me, you seemed to be in agreement with me. Is an unwillingness to let go of what has been lost a good thing or a bad thing for a person?

You SEEM to fear losing things more than enjoying them.
So, you stop yourself from having enjoyment.

The point is I don't have this fear. I don't think it is a good thing to have this fear. Do you think it is a good thing? If not then aren't we in agreement?

Bravo?
BUT what else does this accomplish?
Other than pride..
Because you can endure some deprivation?
Bravo for that, too?
Well, that's great. It's important to be able to find happiness in life.
Pleasure is a good thing, pretty much by DEFINITION.. more pleasure to you.
So you DON'T deny yourself pleasures.
Great, why should you? I don't either.

The lack of fear, the lack of being attached to what has been lost and not denying yourself the pleasure which can be found in each moment in life.

I'm NOT sure that Thief does, either.
Talks the talk.. for sure. WALK THE TALK?

Not convinced.

BUT Thief WAS talking about how great it was to deny ourselves pleasures.
He didn't explain why or how that works.

And neither have you.

Well I'm not here to defend Thief. Me, I was just referring to my aspiration I was questioned about.

 

[Blastcat]

But desire does not come from the heart, it comes from the mind...it appears that we do not agree, but that is ok, your way is your way and my way is mine

Yes, your methods don't really mean that much to you.

One way is as good as any other. RIGHT?

 

[Blastcat]

I suspect I could answer for Thief but probably shouldn't

Good plan. Let him talk for himself. His ideas are vague enough as it is.

Like anyone else, I think, I'd prefer to avoid the the not nice feelings.

RIGHT.. me too. Avoid the bad, go for the good.
BUT Thief's idea seems to be just avoid. ANYTHING. AVOID IT ALL....
Maybe he should clarify.

No, however yes I think some people allow objects to control them. Do you think people should let objects control them? If not then we are in agreement.

I think it's rather DELUSIONAL to think that inanimate objects can "control" anyone. I suspect you mean something else.

Right, things come and go. The less attachment you have the easier it is to let go of something and find pleasure elsewhere.

Ok, we agree. Let's not over attach.
Let's attach reasonably and responsibly.

Attachment does not mean OVER ATTACHMENT.
OVER anything isn't particularity good.

Maybe that's your concern?
Maybe you don't want to be OVER attached.

But it's one thing to allow yourself to be attached and another thing to allow yourself to be attached in a way that is NOT good for anyone, including ourselves.

There ARE healthy attachment styles available.
We can have a FLEXIBLE attachment style.

ATTACH REAL HARD when it's good, AND LET GO REAL FAST when it's NOT so good.
How's that?

This is the sense that I am using it

attached
to bind by ties of affection or regard

To like or have a fondness for.

Ok, I'm quite affectionate towards my brand new Samsung Smart TV... Not as affectionate as I am towards my two daughters.. but hey.. close enough. I like and I have fondness for my new SAMSUNG BRAND Smart TV.

SO what?
Am I wrong?

I don't see it as denying anything. Just I don't know whats coming up around the corner right? So I don't want any attachments I might have interfering with my ability to find pleasure in each moment of life. Just like you said, no TV you read a book.

No book, watch TV.
NO book or TV.. write a book.

What's your point?

THIEF'S point is that we SHOULD deny ourselves.
I say NO and ask WHY.

You don't want to deny yourself.
HE DOES.

So, I ask for his reasons. So far.. he gives none.
That's MY point.

My parents abandon me when I was a kid. I lived in the woods and stole for food. I'm not saying that for sympathy, just so you might understand that I'd have a different outlook on life than you.

I was raised very poor. I had struggles. Maybe not the kind of struggles you had, granted. But don't assume that you would have PREFERRED my childhood. And yes, I understand that people struggle.

That has nothing to do with why we should DENY pleasures.
But I am sorry that you went through such difficult times.

Just that, attachment to things that are no longer available to you is not beneficial.

Right. What's gone is gone.
What is HERE might be enjoyable.
What's wrong with enjoying what is here?

If you can adapt as easily as you seem to be saying it is for you then I assume you understand why attachment to things which are no longer available to you can be a problem.

Yeah, if you pretend that you don't want something so it doesn't BOTHER you to not have it.. fine. BUT HAVING SOMETHING GOOD is pretty sweet.

DENY yourself if you like.
But I don't see the point.

You just didn't GET that thing.
BRAVO for not enjoying that.

It must be SO enjoyable to not enjoy things.

I see attachment as an unwillingness to let go of what has been lost. You seem to be implying that you don't see this as a good idea either.

Attachment doesn't necessarily imply not being able to let go. Once something that I am attached to is GONE.. I can let it go.
Where does this unwillingness come from all of a sudden?

Your definition of attachment above didn't at all include UNWILLINGNESS to let go once something is lost.

Is an unwillingness to let go of what has been lost a good thing or a bad thing for a person?

Nope., an unwillingness to let go of what has been lost isn't a good thing.
HOWEVER,
What does an UNWILLINGNESS TO LET GO have to do with attachment and DENYING OURSELVES PLEASURE?

I can attach and then un-attach as I see fit.
What.. are you incapable of change?

The lack of fear, the lack of being attached to what has been lost and not denying yourself the pleasure which can be found in each moment in life.

Denying yourself means you lack fear?
How does THAT happen?

Why do you need to stay attached to something that is lost?
Just get RID of the unnecessary attachment and live for the moment!

I'm attached to my brand new TV.. if it were to disappear.. My attachment would also disappear, it's not like it was my CHILD... I don't have to be CRAZY about material objects, even if I DO like them at times.
What's so magical about that?

I won't commit Hara-Kiri because my TV broke down. COME on now.
Let's not exaggerate attachments into some DEMON ...attachements are fun.

Attachments aren't addictions.
They aren't out to GIT you.
Attachments can be GOOD for us.

I'm attached to the nice things in life. GOOD FOR ME.
I'm attached to my kids and other kind people. VERY GOOD FOR ME.

Well I'm not here to defend Thief. Me, I was just referring to my aspiration I was questioned about.

I still don't have YOUR explanation of how denying yourself makes any sense.
It doesn't seem that you DO deny yourself.

That was Thief's point.
That we SHOULD deny ourselves for some reason.

Thief has yet to explain what that reason might BE.

 

[Wu Wei]

Yes, your methods don't really mean that much to you.

One way is as good as any other. RIGHT?

My methods are my methods and I have no intention of forcing them on anyone....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You can't hand creation to someone given to his own desire.
ALL desire must be controlled.

Why?

 

[Blastcat]

My methods are my methods and I have no intention of forcing them on anyone....

That's what I was saying..

You don't care enough about YOUR methods to tell us what they are.. so no worries....

Don't think you CAN force your methods, now, can you?

Was ANYONE here saying you were forcing your methods?
Was ANYONE here talking about forcing methods?

BUT....

If you come in here.. and want to DISCUSS methods.. then, how about that?
Otherwise.. your ideas are .. what?

What ARE your methods.. ?

Do you use playing cards.. does your DOG tell you what to think telepathically?

Are you completely demented?
I have NO idea.

Because you don't TELL me what those methods are.
You can use FRUITCAKE as your method.

ARE you using fruitcakes as a method?

 

[Pudding]

You can't hand creation to someone given to his own desire.
ALL desire must be controlled.

What is this creation you mean?

Who give this creation to whom?

What do you mean "given to his own desire" ? What aspect of desire do you mean?

"ALL desire must be controlled" ?
ALL desire must be controlled in what methods?

 

[Blastcat]

What is this creation you mean?

Who give this creation to whom?

What do you mean "given to his own desire" ? What aspect of desire do you mean?

"ALL desire must be controlled" ?
ALL desire must be controlled in what methods?

OH COME ON PUDDING.. thief is so plain... it's SO obvious.

He says...

you can't HAND creation. Of course, this means that creations are from the feet.

Next, he says something SO simple.. how can you MISS the truthiness?

Creation is given to his own desire. What did you THINK theif means.. given to his own recording studio?

No.. Creation is GIVEN not taken from his OWN not his OWNED because you can't OWN a desire but you can OWN your creative desires that are GIVEN to you as a FOOT massage.

See?

So simple.

Next, he says something SO SIMPLE that I am SHOCKED that even the likes OF YOU can't understand.

All creativity desires must be controlled by foot massages in recording studios.

ARE YOU NEW HERE?

 

[Pudding]

OH COME ON PUDDING.. thief is so plain... it's SO obvious.

He says...

you can't HAND creation. Of course, this means that creations are from the feet.

Next, he says something SO simple.. how can you MISS the truthiness?

Creation is given to his own desire. What did you THINK theif means.. given to his own recording studio?

No.. Creation is GIVEN not taken from his OWN not his OWNED because you can't OWN a desire but you can OWN your creative desires that are GIVEN to you as a FOOT massage.

See?

So simple.

Next, he says something SO SIMPLE that I am SHOCKED that even the likes OF YOU can't understand.

All creativity desires must be controlled by foot massages in recording studios.

ARE YOU NEW HERE?

If your interpretation to what his statement means is correctly represent to what he intended to means, then i'll say that his statement doesn't make sense.

 

[Blastcat]

If your interpretation to what his statement's meaning is correctly represent to what he intended to means, then i'll say that his statement doesn't make sense.

OH, IM SURE its all about foot massages in music studios.

anyway, that's WHAT I BELIEVE..so don't disrespect my beliefs.

 

[Pudding]

No problem.

 

[Wu Wei]

That's what I was saying..

You don't care enough about YOUR methods to tell us what they are.. so no worries....

Don't think you CAN force your methods, now, can you?

Was ANYONE here saying you were forcing your methods?
Was ANYONE here talking about forcing methods?

BUT....

If you come in here.. and want to DISCUSS methods.. then, how about that?
Otherwise.. your ideas are .. what?

What ARE your methods.. ?

Do you use playing cards.. does your DOG tell you what to think telepathically?

Are you completely demented?
I have NO idea.

Because you don't TELL me what those methods are.
You can use FRUITCAKE as your method.

ARE you using fruitcakes as a method?

Oh! Oh I see! you came her for an argument
Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.