Assuming a good, all-powerful god(s) - why is there torture?

[Riverwolf]

The other explanation that I also find compelling is that this world may be a kind of holodeck, or illusion. Beings may be sort of plugged into a machine, kind of like in the matrix. The gods may find this to be a valuable tool for helping beings gain wisdom and knowledge. In such a world torture may simply be an illusion, not actually being experienced by any living life-form. Instead, the reason of making torture a part of this illusion would as a challenge, in which the beings would have to try to find reasonable explanations to account for torture. It could be that our entire lives are set up in a way as to make our experience potentially very valuable, with all kinds of opportunities to grow and develop, and all kinds of challenges to overcome in hopes of learning and coming out of this illusion far better off than we were going in.

You know... that pretty much sums up the Hindu worldview. ^_^

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Ive come up with a couple possibilities that I find compelling. The first possibility is that the gods kind of suspend the soul of the person who is being tortured. In this case, the person no longer experiences the torturing. The gods, assuming they have great power over physics, could affect the body of the individual that is being tortured in such a way that it would appear to others that the individual that is tortured is experiencing it, when in actuality, the body would be like a lifeless machine, and the persons soul would not actually be experiencing it. I find this explanation compelling because torture is now something that is no longer truly being experienced. Now, it may be that an individual can gain value out of the experience, but I think that there is a point at which torture no longer adds any value and is simply suffering. Perhaps god would allow a being to experience torture, as long as it is good to do so, such as if that being could gain greater insight and understanding into evil through having this experience.

The other explanation that I also find compelling is that this world may be a kind of holodeck, or illusion. Beings may be sort of plugged into a machine, kind of like in the matrix. The gods may find this to be a valuable tool for helping beings gain wisdom and knowledge. In such a world torture may simply be an illusion, not actually being experienced by any living life-form. Instead, the reason of making torture a part of this illusion would as a challenge, in which the beings would have to try to find reasonable explanations to account for torture. It could be that our entire lives are set up in a way as to make our experience potentially very valuable, with all kinds of opportunities to grow and develop, and all kinds of challenges to overcome in hopes of learning and coming out of this illusion far better off than we were going in.

You know, I could fly with this, if it weren't for the fact that people have been tortured to the point where their nerves were damaged, and then lived to tell about it. Go get caught up in some crazy house and let some fanatic tie you up and torture you before slowly skinning you alive.

Skinning people alive was actually a popular torture method practiced in the medieval era. It was considered a lesser method though, because the victim usually died before the torturer reached the victims midsection.

Let someone stick bamboo shoots under your fingernails. I don't care what you do. Just take pictures and don't die because I want to see a god of goodness rescue you.

 

[kai]

Somewhat, but hell is far worse. I'd like to know why its happening on earth, assuming that an all-powerful, good god exists.

OK and i would like to know why it happens in hell if an all powerful ,good god exists. maybe its reinforcing the threat? because lets face it who would be scared of anything they cant comprehend?

 

[839311]

You know, I could fly with this, if it weren't for the fact that people have been tortured to the point where their nerves were damaged, and then lived to tell about it.

The gods could have un-suspended their souls after the torture process, so that they would be back in their bodies with the memory of the torture process having occured. They would think that they had been tortured, when in reality they weren't, but only have the memories that were created by the gods and implanted into the soul.

The other explanation, the one of illusion, makes it even easier to account for people being tortured and living to tell about it. They wouldn't be real, and no one was tortured. It is simply something that can potentially lead to growth and learning for the one experiencing the illusion. To be honest, this is the explanation that seems most reasonable right now, assuming an all-powerful, good god(s) exist.

Even resource wise, it would be very efficient for the gods to create a kind of machine that could create such an illusion. In contrast, if this galaxy of ours that is filled with lifeless planets and stars that are actually made of real matter and energy, then that matter and energy is not being used in a very useful way. I think that an all-powerful good god would probably try to use matter and energy in the best way possible, trying to create as many intelligent, happy beings as possible, while making sure that they also had everything they needed in order to have a pleasant life.

 

[839311]

OK and i would like to know why it happens in hell if an all powerful ,good god exists. maybe its reinforcing the threat? because lets face it who would be scared of anything they cant comprehend?

If it happens in hell, I would assume that a good, all powerful god would be using torture as a way for beings to get valuable experience, knowledge and wisdom out of it. If there wouldn't be any value in torture then a good, all-powerful god wouldn't allow it. The concept of eternel torture is dark. But hopefully the beings that promote this concept will one day realize their error, and then gain valuable insight and understanding into this kind of poor thinking, and be better able to discern between what is good and what is not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If god(s) are good and all-powerful, why would they allow such torture to happen?

Adam is our family head. Adam chose for us to put people rule over God rule.

God, at this time, does not intervene with man's choices.
However, God has set a day [Matt 24v36], when there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs. Time has allowed for us to be born, populate the earth, and use our free will however we wish. Mankind has rulership until the time of Jesus glory [Matt 25vs 31,32] when God's kingdom described as a moving 'Stone' at Daniel 2vs34,45 takes action.

World conditions prove to all that mankind can not successfully direct his step.
Jeremiah 10v23; 17v9.

Also Satan, as with Job, challenges our integrity. By saying 'a man' [Job 2v4] Satan is implying 'all' of us are involved. Apply enough pressure and sooner or later we will not choose to serve God. Time has also allowed all in heaven and earth to see that there are those that will keep God's will ahead of their own thus proving Satan the liar that he is.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Who knows? For the experience, maybe?
All the Scriptures say that the activities of God are a Mystery.

What Scriptures do you have in mind?

It is No mystery to Jesus that he would be in a deep sleep like condition while he was dead in hell.
See: John 11vs11-14; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecc. 9v5.

In Scripture an mystery is in the form of a secret or sacred secret to be progressively revealed as in the case with the coming of the Messiah.

Rev 17v5 mentions the world's religious sector opposing God as a mystery, but verse 7 explains that the angel will tell us the mystery.

Daniel was told that his words would remain secret for a while.
At the time of the end, or last days of badness on earth knowledge of Daniel's writings and the rest of Scripture would be increased.- Daniel 12v4.

 

[Riverwolf]

What Scriptures do you have in mind?

I'm mostly thinking of Vedic literature, but, as you point out, there's mystery in the Biblical canon, as well.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

The gods could have un-suspended their souls after the torture process, so that they would be back in their bodies with the memory of the torture process having occured. They would think that they had been tortured, when in reality they weren't, but only have the memories that were created by the gods and implanted into the soul.

Now this... this sounds like a fluffy (I don't mean that in a derogatory way) explanation of... what I heard happens. Some people use pain to reach a state of "no-mind" which is what some call gnosis. When you reach that it can be ecstatic for some, while others use it as a tool for energy focus. These are some of the reasons why people like the guy I linked to, hang themselves from hooks.

The difference is that the state is reached in a calm, voluntary and controlled enviroment while victims of torture are unwilling and forced. The same mental reaction eventually occurs though, I think. The brain responds to the shock by releasing some sort of chemicals that calms and quiets the mind, enabling the person to move beyond the pain.

The other explanation, the one of illusion, makes it even easier to account for people being tortured and living to tell about it. They wouldn't be real, and no one was tortured. It is simply something that can potentially lead to growth and learning for the one experiencing the illusion. To be honest, this is the explanation that seems most reasonable right now, assuming an all-powerful, good god(s) exist.

I can't agree there. You're getting into Matrix theory or something. lol.

Even resource wise, it would be very efficient for the gods to create a kind of machine that could create such an illusion. In contrast, if this galaxy of ours that is filled with lifeless planets and stars that are actually made of real matter and energy, then that matter and energy is not being used in a very useful way. I think that an all-powerful good god would probably try to use matter and energy in the best way possible, trying to create as many intelligent, happy beings as possible, while making sure that they also had everything they needed in order to have a pleasant life.

What if it is just that the gods created the chemical responses in the brain and nerves that allows the person to eventually transcend the pain?

 

[839311]

The difference is that the state is reached in a calm, voluntary and controlled enviroment while victims of torture are unwilling and forced. The same mental reaction eventually occurs though, I think. The brain responds to the shock by releasing some sort of chemicals that calms and quiets the mind, enabling the person to move beyond the pain.

What if it is just that the gods created the chemical responses in the brain and nerves that allows the person to eventually transcend the pain?

Perhaps. The idea that a good, all-powerful god would use torture to help a being transcend pain doesn't sound too good to me, although it may be a valuable experience. How much torture would one need to experience in order to transcend the pain? Would it be of value to experience 5 years of torture before transcending? Or would 5 days be sufficient? Personally Im thinking that after about 3-7 days the torment might lose its power for educational purposes, if there really is anything of value to gain that is worth enduring such suffering. I don't want to be tortured if there is another path, one that is easier and equally effective. I have experienced pain in relatively lower amounts, and I think I have gained sufficient understanding of it to not need anymore for developmental purposes. I could be wrong... Perhaps if it ever does happen to either of us, the god(s) will monitor the situation and adjust how much pain we feel to make it endurable and useful, and so that we don't die before we experience the transcendence.

 

[Vietta]

The reason there is torture is because the God(s) that created humans allotted the the right to chose what they do. Free will is something everyone has and it can't be taken away by anyone. Choice is what allows people to harm their fellow humans but its also what allows them to be generous and kind. Choice is a complicated thing, it hurts and helps, but it is necessary. The God(s) that created the world and everything in it didn't want us all to believe the same way or act the same way so they gave us the right to choose what we want to do with our lives.

 

[839311]

Choice is a complicated thing, it hurts and helps, but it is necessary.

Perhaps at this time in our development choice is something that is indeed necessary for development and growth. I think its very likely, assuming an all-powerful good god - because why would a good, all-powerful god make us experience things like torture and other forms of suffering, if there is nothing to be gained from it?

Ultimately, I would like a life in which I would not be capable of any bad thoughts or actions. To that extent, I would welcome the god(s) changing me so that I would be free of bad thoughts and actions, assuming I would be ready for this change, and that I had learned everything and experienced everything I needed to.

 

[coolkeg]

"So, assuming that an all-powerful, good god(s) exist, what explanations are there to account for torture of the worst kinds?"

the answer to this question is simple, its both impossible and implausible for the above to exist, if there was an all good and powerfull god there wouldnt be torture therfor god is either good or powerfull or neither but he cant exist as both not when put in this context anyway, torture could ovcourse exist under different forms of god, such as if god was defined as nature, then nature has no direct effect on weather it tortures you or not, it either does or doesnt through luck

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Perhaps at this time in our development choice is something that is indeed necessary for development and growth. I think its very likely, assuming an all-powerful good god - because why would a good, all-powerful god make us experience things like torture and other forms of suffering, if there is nothing to be gained from it?
Ultimately, I would like a life in which I would not be capable of any bad thoughts or actions. To that extent, I would welcome the god(s) changing me so that I would be free of bad thoughts and actions, assuming I would be ready for this change, and that I had learned everything and experienced everything I needed to.

What can be gained is the knowledge that mankind without God's direction and guidance can not successfully direct his step. -Jer 10v23

Also, it shows the truth of the words recorded at Ecc. [8v9] that fallen flesh can dominate mankind to injury.

Time has allowed for us to be born and for all to see in heaven and earth that only rulership by God can bring us benefits and rewards instead of sorrows.

Matthew chapter 25 talks of the time of Jesus 'glory' so to speak, Once there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs then we will gain the healthy human perfection of mind and body that Adam originally had at his creation.
As with Adam the choice will be whether to obey God as ruler.
If not, we can not be part of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.