Asuras

[Draupadi]

What is it with the Gods and the Asuras? The latters have always been discriminated. Everyone considers them bad entities. Shakuni once told Arjun not to attack his son's killer at night like an Asura. Why all the hatred? But there were some good ones among them. So why are they not allowed to enter the heaven, where the Devas reside? It seems that other than Shiva nobody cares for them. That was proven when Krishna slept with Vrinda in the disguise of her husband in order to make Jalandhar mortal. That is not something you expect from the Great Gods.

 

[Sb1995]

too advanced for me, hi though.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is it with the Gods and the Asuras? The latters have always been discriminated. Everyone considers them bad entities. Shakuni once told Arjun not to attack his son's killer at night like an Asura. Why all the hatred? But there were some good ones among them. So why are they not allowed to enter the heaven, where the Devas reside? It seems that other than Shiva nobody cares for them. That was proven when Krishna slept with Vrinda in the disguise of her husband in order to make Jalandhar mortal. That is not something you expect from the Great Gods.

Draupadi, well, they say everything is fair in love and war. But Hinduism has many stories. The death of Jarasandha is depicted in other ways also. All stories are for instruction only.

In the Vedas, 'Asuras' denote Gods. Indra, Agni, Mitra, Varuna, and even Vishnu are said to be great 'Asuras'. Since there might have been competition with the indigenous Gods (Aryans being migrants from Central Asia), the term took an adverse meaning. But as you already understand, some of the 'asuras' are considered very pious. Many obtained boons from Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva, but then are shown to misuse their powers, to be finally killed by one God/Goddess or another.

The most illustrious of 'Asuras' were Prahlad, considered to be greatest devotee of Lord Vishnu, and Bali (Mahabali of Kerala) who when asked in charity for his own body, did not hesitate to give it. Lord Vishnu in his Vamana (Dwarf) avatara has promised Bali to be the Indra of the next creation. Why would someone as pious as Prahlad will go to Indra's heaven from where souls have to come back in re-birth? They go to the best of all, Lord Vishnu's 'Vaikuntha' from which there is no return - Nirvana.

Some of the 'asuras' were related to Gods. Lord Krishna's grandson, Aniruddha, was abducted by Banasuras daughter, Usha, when she fell in love with him on seeing his painting (the general impression is that Banasura ruled somewhere in the direction of Iran). When Krishna came to know this, he mounted a war against Banasura. But as fate would have it, Banasura being a great devotee of Lord Shiva, Lord Shiva came to fight from his side. Both Gods fought intensely till the sages intervened and told them that they were not different but one. That form became known as 'Harihara' (Vishnu-Shiva). By this time Usha was pregnant and Gods agreed to the marriage of Usha and Aniruddha.

 

[Vinayaka]

I view the devas and asuras as if they were people, in order for better understanding. They are just as real (to me).

There are people who you love to be around, would invite them for dinner, could go for a long car ride with, are dynamic, dharmic, and make great friends. You can trust them. (devas) These people are not 'good', they just smart, well informed, and mature.

Then then are people whom you'd just rather not associate with. They lead you to darker areas, they have anger issues, they're not friendly, and never feel uplifting. (asuras) They are not 'bad', they're just immature, not life-smart, and confused. You can easily tolerate them, but only in short periods.

 

[Chakra]

I view the devas and asuras as if they were people, in order for better understanding. They are just as real (to me).

There are people who you love to be around, would invite them for dinner, could go for a long car ride with, are dynamic, dharmic, and make great friends. You can trust them. (devas) These people are not 'good', they just smart, well informed, and mature.

Then then are people whom you'd just rather not associate with. They lead you to darker areas, they have anger issues, they're not friendly, and never feel uplifting. (asuras) They are not 'bad', they're just immature, not life-smart, and confused. You can easily tolerate them, but only in short periods.

Yes, that seems to be the best interpretation. "Deva" is just a title. I believe that Vishvakarma was previously an asura before he got elevated to the status of the Deva, but I may be wrong. The way I see it is that these are all names of different races/species. There are many of these such as the Gandharvas, Rudras, Adityas, Manavas, Asuras, etc. Any one of these can become a "deva". If Asuras really mean "demon", then Prahlada Maharaja would would not be called an asura. But he is called one even after showing his great bhakti to Lord Vishnu. Therefore, asura doesn't necessarily mean the demons depicted in Christianity or other religions, but it is simply a race with "demonic" tendencies. Sometimes you will see it being used as a negative term for people who are not even in the race Asura. I believe Indra was sometimes described as an asura when he was extremely arrogant one time. This is just my interpretation.
Regards

 

[Chakra]

What is it with the Gods and the Asuras? The latters have always been discriminated. Everyone considers them bad entities. Shakuni once told Arjun not to attack his son's killer at night like an Asura. Why all the hatred? But there were some good ones among them. So why are they not allowed to enter the heaven, where the Devas reside? It seems that other than Shiva nobody cares for them. That was proven when Krishna slept with Vrinda in the disguise of her husband in order to make Jalandhar mortal. That is not something you expect from the Great Gods.

They have never been discriminated. It is simply the culture of the Asuras to be violent, ruthless, etc. Brahma and Shiva only gave boons to asuras such as Hiranyakashipu, Ravana, etc only to preserve Vedic honor, but that does not mean that they actually supported them. Lord Vishnu, whenever he incarnates to kill the asuras, does not do them because of anger or hatred, but only to preserve the universe. Asuras have defeated the Devas many times, causing a massive disturbance in the universe. It is up to Lord Vishnu to stop the disturbance and kill them. That is why Lord Vishnu slept with Vrinda and the gods did all that they did. If an asura wants to become God realized and pious, then the Devas will definitely welcome him with respect. Hope this helps.

 

[Draupadi]

Sleeping with a woman who is not your wife does not even befit a mortal, let alone a God.

 

[Chakra]

Sleeping with a woman who is not your wife does not even befit a mortal, let alone a God.

Vrinda Devi is an associate of Lord Vishnu in Vaikuntha and an expansion of Lakshmi Devi. Therefore, Vrinda Devi has always been Lord Vishnu's wife. He came simply to reclaim her. Else, Shiva would not have been able to kill Jallandar. Hope this helps.
Regards.

 

[Vinayaka]

They have never been discriminated. It is simply the culture of the Asuras to be violent, ruthless, etc. Brahma and Shiva only gave boons to asuras such as Hiranyakashipu, Ravana, etc only to preserve Vedic honor, but that does not mean that they actually supported them. Lord Vishnu, whenever he incarnates to kill the asuras, does not do them because of anger or hatred, but only to preserve the universe. Asuras have defeated the Devas many times, causing a massive disturbance in the universe. It is up to Lord Vishnu to stop the disturbance and kill them. That is why Lord Vishnu slept with Vrinda and the gods did all that they did. If an asura wants to become God realized and pious, then the Devas will definitely welcome him with respect. Hope this helps.

I don't study the Puranas so I'm lost. I'm only talking about what's happening now, in this moment, all around us. Devonic and asuric forces are all about us in this world and unseen worlds.

 

[Chakra]

I don't study the Puranas so I'm lost. I'm only talking about what's happening now, in this moment, all around us. Devonic and asuric forces are all about us in this world and unseen worlds.

You are also right. Puranas can be taken both allegorically and literally. There are certainly asuric forces around us, but I was just adding to your comment and giving a Puranic account as Draupadi was asking about Shiva/Vishnu/Gods etc.

 

[Chakra]

What is it with the Gods and the Asuras? The latters have always been discriminated. Everyone considers them bad entities. Shakuni once told Arjun not to attack his son's killer at night like an Asura. Why all the hatred? But there were some good ones among them. So why are they not allowed to enter the heaven, where the Devas reside? It seems that other than Shiva nobody cares for them. That was proven when Krishna slept with Vrinda in the disguise of her husband in order to make Jalandhar mortal. That is not something you expect from the Great Gods.

I forgot to answer some more of your points. The Devas have their own planets in the realm of Svargaloka, while the Asuras live in Patalaloka. Svargaloka is definitely heavenly compared to Earth as the standards of living are much higher, but it is not the ultimate goal. ANYONE can come to Svarga if they have obtained the proper karma to do so. So if an Asura has developed enough punya, then he will be reborn as a resident of Svarga. Likewise, the Asuras also have heavenly planets in the realm of Patala which are just as opulent. People have tried to portray it as a hellish place but it is not the case. The Asuras live a very opulent (and materialistic) life. The good ones will either become a Deva or be one in their next life. There is no discrimination. You also said that no one else than Shiva cares for them. That is not true. Both Brahma and Shiva have given boons to Asuras, but it never ends well. Brahma gave a boon to Hiranyashipu and with that he devastated the universe. Because of this, Lord Vishnu in his Narasimha avatar warned Brahma not to give boons to asuras like him. Lord Shiva also gave boons to Ravana and Vrka, and it never turned out to be good. Lord Shiva eventually had to go to Lord Vishnu to correct his mistake of giving Vrka a boon. Lord Vishnu is the one who avoids giving boons to these asuras, because he knows their real intent which is to disturb. If an asura prayed to Lord Vishnu with a good intention, then Vishnu comes before them.

Of course, this is all a Vaisnava interpretation. Many Hindus will disagree with me on this one.
Regards.

 

[Vinayaka]

You are also right. Puranas can be taken both allegorically and literally. There are certainly asuric forces around us, but I was just adding to your comment and giving a Puranic account as Draupadi was asking about Shiva/Vishnu/Gods etc.

It's all good. The more information the better.

 

[Chakra]

Draupadi, well, they say everything is fair in love and war. But Hinduism has many stories. The death of Jarasandha is depicted in other ways also. All stories are for instruction only.

In the Vedas, Asuras denote Gods. Indra, Agni, Mitra, Varuna, and even Vishnu are said to be great Asuras. Since there might have been competition with the indigenous Gods (Aryans being migrants from Central Asia), the term took an adverse meaning. But as you already understand, some of them are considered very pious. Many obtained boons from Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva, but then are shown to misuse their powers, to be finally killed by one God/Goddess or another.

The most illustrious of Asuras were Prahlad, considered to be greatest devotee of Lord Vishnu, and Bali (Mahabali of Kerala) who when asked in charity for his own body, did not hesitate to give it. Lord Vishnu in his Vamana (Dwarf) avatara has promised Bali to be the Indra of the next creation. Why would someone as pious as Prahlad will go to Indra's heaven from where souls have to come back in re-birth? They go to the best of all, Lord Vishnu's 'Vaikuntha' from which there is no return - Nirvana.

Some of the asuras were related to Gods. Lord Krishna's grandson, Aniruddha, was abducted by Banasuras daughter, Usha, when she fell in love with him on seeing his painting (the general impression is that Banasura ruled somewhere in the direction of Iran). When Krishna came to know this, he mounted a war against Banasura. But as fate would have it, Banasura being a great devotee of Lord Shiva, Lord Shiva came to fight from his side. Both Gods fought intensely till the sages intervened and told them that they were not different but one. That form became known as 'Harihara' (Vishnu-Shiva). By this time Usha was pregnant and Gods agreed to the marriage of Usha and Aniruddha.

Dear sir, as far as I know, the Bhagavata Purana does not mention the sages intervening between the fight. It you could, could you please post where this story is from so I could learn more about the particular Purana/philosophy. Thanks.

(BTW, I do not think that Vishnu was an Asura. Are you sure it was not the Aditya Vishnu who is different from Lord Narayana?)
Regards.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Of course, this is all a Vaisnava interpretation. Many Hindus will disagree with me on this one.

Sure, being sort of a 'smarta' (treating all Gods and Goddesses as equal) and an atheist, my interpretation is a bit different. I would like to point out that many (edited - later-day) 'asuras' were really pious people under curses, even others like Gandharvas and Kinnaras (semi-divine beings). In particular three avataras of Lord Vishnu (Nri-Simha (Man-lion), Rama and Krishna) were to give deliverance to Jaya and Vijaya, two door-keepers of his heaven, Vaikuntha, who were under curse. So the avataras relieved them and they returned back to Lord Vishnu's heaven. Being 'asuras' was only their temporary form. They were Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashipu, Ravana and Kumbhakarna, and Shishupala and Dantavakra.

 

[Draupadi]

Vrinda Devi is an associate of Lord Vishnu in Vaikuntha and an expansion of Lakshmi Devi. Therefore, Vrinda Devi has always been Lord Vishnu's wife. He came simply to reclaim her. Else, Shiva would not have been able to kill Jallandar. Hope this helps.
Regards.

So after Vrinda committed suicide did she merge with Goddess Lakshmi? Your theory kind of seems odd because it was Vrinda who herself had cursed Vishnu and his wife Lakshmi for the former's deed. Why would such a great devotee of Vishnu curse her God if He hadn't done anything wrong?

 

[Aupmanyav]

(BTW, I do not think that Vishnu was an Asura. Are you sure it was not the Aditya Vishnu who is different from Lord Narayana?)

You are right, Axlyz. Vishnu is neither mentioned as an Asura or an Aditya in RigVeda. Checked. Lord Narayana is a late entry. I do not think Vedas mention Narayana.

So after Vrinda committed suicide did she merge with Goddess Lakshmi? Your theory kind of seems odd because it was Vrinda who herself had cursed Vishnu and his wife Lakshmi for the former's deed. Why would such a great devotee of Vishnu curse her God if He hadn't done anything wrong?

Yes the Vrinda story is not very edifying for Vishnu. There are other such stories also. But it is what it is from thousands of years. We can't do much about it. We do not know what is the core of the story and what is the extension.

 

[Chakra]

You are right, Axlyz. Vishnu is neither mentioned as an Asura or an Aditya in RigVeda. Checked. Lord Narayana is a late entry. I do not think Vedas mention Narayana.Yes the Vrinda story is not very edifying for Vishnu. There are other such stories also. But it is what it is from thousands of years. We can't do much about it. We do not know what is the core of the story and what is the extension.

Ah okay then

The Vedas certainly do mention the name "Narayana" in many places.

And the story about Vrinda and Vishnu, it is mentioned in many places that Tulasi was the expansion of Lakshmi. And I don't know if the Padma Purana specifically says that Vishnu "slept with her", but he may have just pretended to be her husband and during that time Tulsi's chastity was broken momentarily and with this Siva killed Jalandhar. Vishnu came during the midst of a battle, so he could not have had time to slept with her. That is what I think, but I'm probably wrong. Also Draupadi you mentioned how Tulsi cursed Lord Vishnu and Lakshmi Devi. Even during the time of Krishna, Rukmini and Satyabhama (expansions of Lakshmi as well) had many fights. So it is not at all contradictory that Tulsi cursed them. Even then, this part is not found in many story, with Tulsi only cursing Vishnu to become a stone.

I cannot say for certain for these besides the fact that Tulsi is Lakshmi's expansion. I cannot find the story in the actual puranas and therefore I am just looking at short renditions of the story.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Tulsi become a plant and the most dear one to Vishnu (vishnupriya). No one offers anything to Vishnu without a Tulsi leaf. Hope this helps Draupadi.
Regards.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Vedas certainly do mention the name "Narayana" in many places.

OK, if you say so.

 

[Chakra]

OK, if you say so.

I haven't read the Vedas as like a story book. But I have seen references to the name and Vishnu given in the books of many Acharyas.

I didn't mean to offend you, forgive me if I did.
Regards

 

[Poeticus]

There is a diacritical difference that ought to be recognized in its accentuated validity: asura & ásura. The former is often synonymous with rakshasa, and it can be argued that it can be used in union with yatudhana (an insulting categorization of the highest degree, IMO). The latter, on the other hand, is in the arshabhasha & the "language" of the chanda-s. Its incantation is different when sung (by a Saman) or recited (by a Hotr) than the plain, Puranic asura (w/o the diacritic).

Ásura is signified by various measurements:

1. A designation of the Old Primordial Gods of the Bharatiya Forefathers/Pitr-s: Lord Shri Mitra and Lord Shri Varuna (often invoked together as a Dual-Ordinance).
2. It is used very intricately for Lord Shri Agni (Shri Agni Vaishvanara) as both a patron and a slayer of ásura (symbolic for being the messenger as well as having the loftiest place on earth; gharmam).
3. The most common application of this archaic appellation is ... Lordship; Cosmic Emperor/King; Heavenly Sovereign.
4. Regardless of the modern, Hindu sectarian discernments regarding this word, shrautically in theological terms ... every deva is an ásura.​