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AT CHRISTMAS, who do we celebrate?..., to Claus ("the elf dressed in red), or to the Baby Jesus?...

Porque77

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
TheresOnlyNow said:
And just to throw this in.
Who cares about pagan history?
As Christians our celebrations honor God and Christ. And that's what matters.
If we get caught up on meaningless pagan history we may consider disposing of that lovely wall calendar we were gifted at work...
Click to expand...
The problem is that in these times many are extending the idea that those who celebrate Christmas, are celebrating something pagan, and so many are confusing the world so that we do not celebrate Christmas, and so that we FORGET the Child Jesus.
 
TheresOnlyNow

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Porque77 said:
The problem is that in these times many are extending the idea that those who celebrate Christmas, are celebrating something pagan, and so many are confusing the world so that we do not celebrate Christmas, and so that we FORGET the Child Jesus.
Click to expand...
I would agree many do. However, is the baby Christ ever in the equation?
The Magi gave very expensive gifts to Mary and Joseph to herald the birth of Messiah. Those were to insure the family would be able to sustain themselves with the valuables that were gifted them.

Today, do Christians emulate that gifting in the spirit the Magi exampled? They gave gifts to survive the family of the Messiah so he could grow and fulfill his destiny.
While we shop for gifts we give to one another as one's who have money already.

Wouldn't Christmas actually be celebrated in the spirit of remembering Christ if that wasn't the case? And instead, we bought blankets, socks, coats, even if we shopped at the Good Will or Salvation Army or God's Way stores, so as to gift those to homeless shelters, battered women's shelters through delivery to the local police stations that then deliver the items.
This insures the security of the women at the seeking protection of the shelter. If people are not aware of its location then the batterer of the women there is less likely to find their victims.
Or, how about food bank and even animal shelters?

Christ has fulfilled his mission for which he was born, though not all is accomplished as yet. Wouldn't we be celebrating and remembering Christ if we gifted those in need? Rather than those of us who are blessed to buy what we want when we want?


christmas-lights-trees-gold-outdoor-gif.gif
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
Roman pagan mythology believed that Sol died on December 21 and resurrected 3 days later on the 25th.
If one were to equate Christian holy days with cross over from Roman myth that would sound more akin to Easter. Crucifixion then Resurrection of the dead son of God three days later.

The practice of God worship on Sunday's for Christians is also taken from the Roman's pagan worship calendar. Early Christians were largely converted Jews who would have exampled the Apostles in keeping the Sabbath from sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday.
Click to expand...

It's not hard to see the pagan roots of so many "Christian" celebrations. Hijacking Jesus to substitute for the pagan deities who's worship was tied up with all of their festivities would hardly earn Christ's approval. Easter is just as pagan in its origins as Christmas.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 confirms this for me and my brotherhood.

"14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

Most Christians either ignore Paul's counsel or have never heard of it. I don't think he leaves us in any doubt as to how we should view "Christianized" paganism.....which is actually paganized Christianity. (Ephesians 5:7-8; Isaiah 52:11; 2 Corinthians 7:1)

When Paul says 'don't touch what is spiritually unclean'....I'm guessing that means not jumping into bed with God's enemies to share their worship with them. It requires a "separation" from those things. Christendom has not separated, but continues to commit what God calls spiritual "adultery". (Ezekiel 23:37) The situation in Jeremiah's day likewise....(Jeremiah 3:8, 9; 5:7, 8; 9:2; 13:27; 23:10)

Adultery carried the death penalty in Israel. Same has to apply for Christians ultimately. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Biblically speaking, spiritual adultery is just as serious. If we want God to 'take us in', we cannot be in a spiritually unclean condition. We can't be breaking God's laws and thinking it doesn't matter. (Luke 16:10)
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
And just to throw this in.
Who cares about pagan history?
As Christians our celebrations honor God and Christ. And that's what matters.
Click to expand...

Why the need to hijack a pagan holiday to do so?

If we get caught up on meaningless pagan history we may consider disposing of that lovely wall calendar we were gifted at work. The days of the week being named after ancient pagan god's and goddesses.
Do we think of that day to day? Does it matter? No. Because Monday is Monday. Not monandaeg, or "moon day".
17 November, 2013

Pagan Gods and the naming of the days
Click to expand...

And wouldn't it have been nice to think that the leader of the Roman Church had the opportunity to change all those pagan names when he introduced the Gregorian calendar? He kept them......but why would he?
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
Deeje said:
Why the need to hijack a pagan holiday to do so?



And wouldn't it have been nice to think that the leader of the Roman Church had the opportunity to change all those pagan names when he introduced the Gregorian calendar? He kept them......but why would he?
Click to expand...

You hate the poor pagans, don't you. And you would erase every trace of their history like ISIS currently does in Syria and Iraq.
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
I would agree many do. However, is the baby Christ ever in the equation?
The Magi gave very expensive gifts to Mary and Joseph to herald the birth of Messiah. Those were to insure the family would be able to sustain themselves with the valuables that were gifted them.

Today, do Christians emulate that gifting in the spirit the Magi exampled? They gave gifts to survive the family of the Messiah so he could grow and fulfill his destiny.
While we shop for gifts we give to one another as one's who have money already.

Wouldn't Christmas actually be celebrated in the spirit of remembering Christ if that wasn't the case? And instead, we bought blankets, socks, coats, even if we shopped at the Good Will or Salvation Army or God's Way stores, so as to gift those to homeless shelters, battered women's shelters through delivery to the local police stations that then deliver the items.
This insures the security of the women at the seeking protection of the shelter. If people are not aware of its location then the batterer of the women there is less likely to find their victims.
Or, how about food bank and even animal shelters?

Christ has fulfilled his mission for which he was born, though not all is accomplished as yet. Wouldn't we be celebrating and remembering Christ if we gifted those in need? Rather than those of us who are blessed to buy what we want when we want?


christmas-lights-trees-gold-outdoor-gif.gif
Click to expand...

According to some, the Holy family probably should have rejected those gifts by the Magi as "pagan gifts".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Porque77 said:
The problem is that in these times many are extending the idea that those who celebrate Christmas, are celebrating something pagan, and so many are confusing the world so that we do not celebrate Christmas, and so that we FORGET the Child Jesus.
Click to expand...

Who is Jesus Christ today? He is a mighty King about to take over control of the world.....the church portrays him as either a helpless baby or a dead man hanging off a cross. Not exactly the right imagery IMO.
 
Last edited:
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Landon Caeli said:
According to some, the Holy family probably should have rejected those gifts by the Magi as "pagan gifts". :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

There was nothing about the gifts to reject. The magi did not come to worship a god, but to pay homage to a royal child. They had no evil intentions, but were used by satan in an attempt to have Jesus killed. That star is not looking so innocent when you take that into consideration. They were duped into helping Herod find a new "king of the Jews"....not to pay homage but to eliminate him from contention.

The gifts were not given by the magi to Mary and Joseph at the stable (as many nativity scenes like to portray) because Mary and Joseph presented the newborn Jesus at the temple where they made their offerings according to the law. The fact that they offered two turtledoves means that they were poor.

If the magi had given the gifts at his birth, then Mary and Joseph would have made an appropriate offering of someone with means. The gifts were expensive.
 
TheresOnlyNow

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Landon Caeli said:
According to some, the Holy family probably should have rejected those gifts by the Magi as "pagan gifts".
Click to expand...
I don't think that the holy family should have refused the gifts. The Magi, wise men, came to worship Jesus. I think that would mean they knew who he was and believed in him even as a newborn Messiah of his people.
 
TheresOnlyNow

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Deeje said:
Why the need to hijack a pagan holiday to do so?



And wouldn't it have been nice to think that the leader of the Roman Church had the opportunity to change all those pagan names when he introduced the Gregorian calendar? He kept them......but why would he?
Click to expand...
Well where we're coming to a crossroads is thinking all Christians today are Catholic.

And the calendar days are changed. Monday to Sunday. No god's or goddesses by those names.
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
Deeje said:
Who is Jesus Christ today? He is a mighty King about to take over control of the world.....the church portrays him as either a helpless baby or a dead man hanging off a cross. No exactly the right imagery IMO.
Click to expand...

So we should save our celebrations until Christ returns in glory?
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
TheresOnlyNow said:
I don't think that the holy family should have refused the gifts. The Magi, wise men, came to worship Jesus. I think that would mean they knew who he was and believed in him even as a newborn Messiah of his people.
Click to expand...

The magi did not say that they came to worship Jesus. They said that they came to honor a newborn king. They knew nothing of him being the Messiah, and neither would they care. When they did obeisance to the child and offered their gifts, there was no worship involved. The Greek word "pros·ky·neʹo" can mean respectful honor to someone in authority.

In Australia we follow the British system of justice and only decades ago the judges in the courts were addressed as "Your Worship" reflecting the meaning of the word used in that way. It isn't "worship" of a deity but respect for that person's position.
 
TheresOnlyNow

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
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