Atheism: A belief?

[Kilgore Trout]

Here's my response to any further posts in this thread. It should adequately cover any arguments: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/113081-rf-thread-one-act-play.html

 

[Alceste]

I don't know - I think it might be because I'm a Cancer.

Oh, well that explains it. I'm a Scorpio.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Oh, well that explains it. I'm a Scorpio.

I just knew there was a rational explanation.

 

[Copernicus]

There it is again. I wish you could see how arrogant it is to tell people that they're not using words the way they say they are because they're deluded. Maybe if you could get off of your pedestal and come down to the real world, we could have a more productive debate.

I don't think that charges of arrogance are helpful in these debates. I wish that you would engage in debate rather than character attacks. I have no intention of getting into an exchange of insults with you.

As someone with a degree in linguistics, you should have learned that people do not always report their own usage accurately. I am surprised that you are so adamant about usage here. After all, it is an empirical question.

 

[Magic Man]

I just knew there was a rational explanation.

So, it turns out that it may just be because we're Scorpios, not because we're smart.

 

[Alceste]

I just knew there was a rational explanation.

lol - and the head line on my palm is straight as an arrow, which means I can easily grasp rational arguments.

 

[Orias]

Some freakish coincidence, I'm sure.

Why are you here?

Because the only thing required to be an atheist is to not hold the belief that god(s) exist.

Exactly, so when I ask one whether or not they believe in the existence of "God", any answer would be a belief.

Not holding a belief isn't holding a belief.

As you believe.

Are you even trying to make sense any more?

Theists believe that something they define as god exists.

Why would one bother defining something if they didn't believe it existed?

You are wrong, unless you would consider me an atheistic theist.

Once again, refute why this is wrong - in English please.

Then refute why a belief specific to atheism would be, not having a belief in "God(s)".

You've also failed to demonstrate why it is a belief. Any time now.

You just pick and chose.

It makes me a non-theist, an atheist, and agnostic, according to various applicable definitions.

Ah, so you do place trust in labels. That clears a lot up.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't think that charges of arrogance are helpful in these debates. I wish that you would engage in debate rather than character attacks. I have no intention of getting into an exchange of insults with you.

It's not so much about attacking your character as it is about attacking why you're making the argument you're making. You feel (in your arrogance) that you know our minds better than we do. If you drop that thinking, we can have a real discussion.

As someone with a degree in linguistics, you should have learned that people do not always report their own usage accurately. I am surprised that you are so adamant about usage here. After all, it is an empirical question.

You're the one who keeps saying "This is how we use it...". I'm countering that statement. And I'm pretty sure when I say "atheist" it means what I say it means.

 

[Orias]

It's very simple. If I say "I believe...", then I'm talking about a belief. If I say "I don't believe...", then I'm talking about a lack of belief; in other words "not a belief".

I only laugh at your lack of sense.

Such statements as, I believe, and I don't believe obviously have some type of interconnection, otherwise belief wouldn't be used to reference one's own opinion.

In such topics, I believe a "God" exists, is as much an opinion and belief as, I don't believe a "God" exists.

You seem to be the only one stuck on this point yet, we have all moved on.

 

[Orias]

You're the one who keeps saying "This is how we use it...". I'm countering that statement. And I'm pretty sure when I say "atheist" it means what I say it means.

And this is why your presence here is uneeded.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Exactly, so when I ask one whether or not they believe in the existence of "God", any answer would be a belief.

An answer of "no" would not be a belief - hence, atheism is not a belief.

You still haven't demonstrated how not holding a belief is actually holding a belief. You keep saying that it is, but you haven't provided a single cogent argument explaining why or how.

Try again.

 

[Magic Man]

I only laugh at your lack of sense.

Well, that's one way to go. I'd rather you just take a minute to try to understand it. However, considering the comments you consider to "make sense", it's no surprise that my rational, logical comments don't make sense to you. It's like talking to a guy on acid. If my comments made sense to him, then I'd start to wonder about myself.

Such statements as, I believe, and I don't believe obviously have some type of interconnection, otherwise belief wouldn't be used to reference one's own opinion.

In such topics, I believe a "God" exists, is as much an opinion and belief as, I don't believe a "God" exists.

You seem to be the only one stuck on this point yet, we have all moved on.

I'm only stuck on it because you are arguing against sanity. Others have moved on in that they've given up trying to explain this to you. I haven't yet, for some reason.

This isn't really hard, no matter how much you want to make it so. In my head there exist beliefs. In that set of beliefs "God exists" is absent. There is no such belief in my head. That is called atheism. It is the nonexistence of that belief in a person's head. Hence atheism is not a belief, but the absence of a belief.

Did you skip school and then try to argue that you were there because "absence of a child" equals "a child"? I do realize that none of this is likely to get through to you, but I'll keep trying for now. Unfortunately I can't think of any clearer way to put it, though.

 

[Orias]

An answer of "no" would not be a belief - hence, atheism is not a belief.

:biglaugh: Just stop.

"Do you believe in God?" There is one of two answers, either yes, or no. Both being a position of ignorance, which supplements belief.

You still haven't demonstrated how not holding a belief is actually holding a belief. You keep saying that it is, but you haven't provided a single cogent argument explaining why or how.

Try again.

You have done nothing, nor have you proven that you actually know anything.

 

[Magic Man]

And this is why your presence here is uneeded.

Why? Because I'm presenting a realistic, logical, rational view on things? Would it be better to leave you to nonsensical ramblings?

 

[Magic Man]

An answer of "no" would not be a belief - hence, atheism is not a belief.

You still haven't demonstrated how not holding a belief is actually holding a belief. You keep saying that it is, but you haven't provided a single cogent argument explaining why or how.

Try again.

I can only guess that what he's trying to say is that you believe that you don't believe in God, and so that's a belief. Of course, by that logic, the fact that I believe a horse is not a belief means it's a belief because I believe it. So, obviously that makes perfect sense...unless you're not on drugs.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

"Do you believe in God?" There is one of two answers, either yes, or no. Both being a position of ignorance, which supplements belief.

Another nonsensical statement. Positions of ignorance supplement belief? Does that make some kind of sense in your head?

quote=Orias;2402865]
You have done nothing, nor have you proven that you actually know anything.[/quote]

Wow, I've pretty much worn you to the point of blabbering, eh?

Bottom line - you have completely failed to even come close to demonstrating how atheism is a belief. If you ever want to attempt to formulate a cogent argument trying to show how it is, I'll be waiting.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I can only guess that what he's trying to say is that you believe that you don't believe in God, and so that's a belief. Of course, by that logic, the fact that I believe a horse is not a belief means it's a belief because I believe it. So, obviously that makes perfect sense...unless you're not on drugs.

The funny thing is that's what he is saying, but he doesn't even realize it.

 

[Falvlun]

If you say "I don't believe in the existence of god", I fail to see how this couldn't be a belief. It's a belief that god doesn't exist.

Yes, you could word that differently so that it means a lack of a belief, but the construction above certainly implies belief.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If you say "I don't believe in the existence of god", I fail to see how this couldn't be a belief.

State what the belief would be.

 

[Falvlun]

State what the belief would be.

Editted.