Atheism: A belief?

[Willamena]

I would say "No". There would probably be more to the conversation after that, but that would be my response.

I asked about your first impulse, but okay.

I didn't say you said belief, nor did I think you did. That's why I said yours was a weird way to put it. I changed "information" to "belief" because it's more relevant and accurate. "Information" isn't really helpful.

Ah, so you weren't addressing what I'd said. My bad.

 

[Magic Man]

I asked about your first impulse, but okay.

So, you're saying that wouldn't be my first impulse? Maybe this whole thread would go better if I just have you and Copernicus tell me what I think, feel and mean when I talk. It sounds like you guys know that stuff better than I do.

Ah, so you weren't addressing what I'd said. My bad.

Interesting way of dealing with it. I was indeed addressing what you said. What you said was a poor way to word it, so I said that, and then made your comment more relevant. I addressed what you said by responding to what you should have said. Again, "information" is not a helpful choice of word here. "Belief" is the one you were looking for, so I used that instead.

 

[Willamena]

Yes, I know that. That's what I've been trying to argue this whole time: rejection of all gods implies awareness of all gods. This is where the problem arises if you want to define atheism in terms of rejection.

No, it implies rejection of belief in a category of beings.

i.e. a concept, right. A concept, as a generalized case, ignores particulars.

 

[Willamena]

So, you're saying that wouldn't be my first impulse?

No, just asking.

 

[Orias]

Right, which isn't a belief - it's an absence of belief. An absence of belief isn't a belief. Simple logic.

It is rather simple, if I asked you if you believed in the existence of "God" you would say, "no". Therefore, it is a belief.

Nope, that's self-evident. An absence of belief isn't a belief. Something you can't seem to get through your head. Although, to be fair, you're not really trying.

Your completely missing the point that you believe in everything you are saying, in relevance as to what "atheism" is.

 

[Alceste]

It is rather simple, if I asked you if you believed in the existence of "God" you would say, "no". Therefore, it is a belief.

Please explain exactly what that belief is, based on the context you have described.

Your completely missing the point that you believe in everything you are saying, in relevance as to what "atheism" is.

Orias, it has been acknowledged numerous times that we understand your whole inane point is that the "belief" you are talking about is the belief that we lack belief in the existence of a god or gods.

HOWEVER, the belief that those who lack belief in a god or gods are atheists is not unique to atheists. Many theists also believe that those who lack belief in a god or gods are atheists. Therefore, the word "atheism" does not describe a specific belief even by your own rather silly argument.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It is rather simple, if I asked you if you believed in the existence of "God" you would say, "no". Therefore, it is a belief.

Not having a belief, isn't a belief. Repeating that it is over and over doesn't make it so. Sorry, try again.

Your completely missing the point that you believe in everything you are saying, in relevance as to what "atheism" is.

Because anything I'm saying that can be construed as a belief doesn't define atheism. Sorry, try again.

 

[Orias]

Nice try, but if that were true, you wouldn't be responding to me now, and you wouldn't have responded indirectly to me before.

Whatever lets you sleep at night

This is why I said you should either respond to the counterpoints brought up against you or just get out of the discussion. Our counterpoints to this argument of yours aren't going to disappear. It's a little dishonest to try to ignore them long enough that people might forget them, and then make the same claim.

One could hardly consider them counterparts...they don't even direct my points.

My belief about atheism has no bearing whatsoever on what atheism is. If I say "I believe a horse is not a belief", that doesn't make a horse a belief. If I state what I believe about atheism, that doesn't make atheism a belief. My beliefs about atheism aren't part of what make me an atheist. Most people who have heard about atheism have beliefs about it. Does that make them atheists? Does that make atheism a belief?

Air ball.

Atheism is a rather simple belief, why? Because people follow it.

Not believing in the existence of a "God" is a belief, as much as believing in the existence of a "God" is.
If this were not so, you clearly would not be redefining "atheism" to best fit your arugment in every post.

I think you've gotten yourself into an indefensible position here. This is your chance to say "No, that's true; a belief about something doesn't make that something a belief".

All positions are defendable.

OK, are you intentionally missing the point, or just accidentally? The point of that paragraph was that "one who lacks belief in gods" describes all atheists. Every single atheist must lack belief in gods to be an atheist. It's a prerequisite. That part isn't in question. Even Copernicus will agree with that. The problem is whether or not that alone is sufficient to define oneself as an atheist, or whether one must also hold the belief that gods don't exist.

I didn't miss the point at all. Unless of course, you are speaking for all atheists.

That works for nailing drywall. It's not quite as effective when debating.

This is a dishonest statement, if you truly believed in this you wouldn't continue pushing the "lack of belief in "God(s)" argument.

You have no belief in "God(s)", is in reference to, I have no belief about the existence of "God(s)", therefore taking the label atheist (without God) and the beliefs that follow it.

Of course I keep mentioning lack of belief. It's a central part of the argument. I've also repeated some things a few times. Partly that's because you just keep repeating your arguments without even responding to what I'm saying. You're doing it right here.

:biglaugh:

This is very simple. "I don't believe" is specifically saying "I don't hold X belief". The only way that is a belief is if you mean "I believe that I don't believe X", but if that makes atheism a belief, than it makes a horse a belief. I've tried using this track with you for a while now, but you keep ignoring it, preferring instead to keep repeating this nonsensical view.

Again, trust in labels is a belief.

You know nothing outside of your mind.

I've been doing that! You keep ignoring it. You ignored it in this very response of yours.

I don't believe this is what I asked for.

Yes, a belief is when you believe something.
That's obvious.

Looks like you've come a step closer to understanding.

So, when I say "I don't believe X", that's not a belief, since I'm saying I don't believe. Atheism is not a belief because it's lacking a belief, not holding one.

You really believe this don't you?

Again, I'll go back to an example. There are 2 people, one holding a bottle, and the other one not. Factual statements about them would be "One person has a bottle, and the other doesn't". Now, there are two people, one holds the belief "God exists", and the other doesn't. The factual statement about these 2 is "One person has the belief 'God exists', and the other doesn't". The person who doesn't have that belief is an atheist. The person might have many other beliefs. The person might even have beliefs about what atheism is. However, none of that is relevant. What is relevant is the person does not have the belief "God exists". In his set of beliefs, that one is absent, and that absence is described as atheism. That is why we use the definition "lack of belief in gods".

Ah yes, but one would not be an atheist if they believed that no "God(s)" existed.

Thanks for proving my point, again.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Please explain exactly what that belief is, based on the context you have described.

I think it's as simple as he thinks it must be a belief if you use the word belief in a sentence. What I don't know, is if it's a matter of an inability to understand logical concepts, or knowingly making an irrational argument out of misguided stubborness. Either way, it seems to be a lost cause.

 

[crocusj]

It is rather simple, if I asked you if you believed in the existence of "God" you would say, "no". Therefore, it is a belief.

No it's not, it is merely an answer to a question. By your logic if I asked you if air was purple and you said, "no" then you are implying that it is another colour as opposed to colourless.

 

[Orias]

Please explain exactly what that belief is, based on the context you have described.

The mental act or condition of placing trust or confidence in another.

Orias, it has been acknowledged numerous times that we understand your whole inane point is that the "belief" you are talking about is the belief that we lack belief in the existence of a god or gods.

No, the point is, if I asked you if you believed in the existence of "God(s)" you would say, "no", as in reference to, "No I do not believe in the existence of "God(s)". Lack of belief in "God(s)" is only relevant when such an inconsistency is the topic at hand, and it's not.

Saying that you either, believe in the existence of something, or you don't believe in the existence is something is a belief, otherwise the label/word belief wouldn't be used to describe such a position.

I tried to stray away from a semantic debate as much as possible, but others tend to have a different agenda.

HOWEVER, the belief that those who lack belief in a god or gods are atheists is not unique to atheists. Many theists also believe that those who lack belief in a god or gods are atheists. Therefore, the word "atheism" does not describe a specific belief even by your own rather silly argument.

Good, because I never claimed "specific belief". Just that atheists try to exclude themself from the general "believing" population.

Not having a belief, isn't a belief. Repeating that it is over and over doesn't make it so. Sorry, try again.

Except for believing that something isn't right?

Because anything I'm saying that can be construed as a belief doesn't define atheism. Sorry, try again.

You're right, it defined Man's Nature.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Except for believing that something isn't right?

I neither believe that the statement "god exists" is right or wrong. I have no belief about whether god exists or not. Try again.

You're right, it defined Man's Nature.

Indeed - so that still doesn't address what belief atheism is. Try again.

 

[Magic Man]

One could hardly consider them counterparts...they don't even direct my points.

Hmmm...I think this sentence of yours gives us some good information on the problem here. It seems as though your grasp of English, or at least your writing skills are not as advanced as they should be for a discussion like this.

The word I used was "counterpoints", not "counterparts". Those are two very different things. The second sentence fragment doesn't even make sense in this context. I think what you meant was "They don't even directly respond to my points". Now, the problem could also be an inattention to the words you're typing, but in any case, resolving whatever issue it is that is hindering your clear communication would go a long way towards clearing up this whole mess.

Atheism is a rather simple belief, why? Because people follow it.

OK, that doesn't even make sense.

Not believing in the existence of a "God" is a belief, as much as believing in the existence of a "God" is.

OK, I'm almost ready to call Poe. You can't possibly be serious, right? You're actually going to claim "not a belief" is a belief? Really? I mean, I know that's what you've been doing, but when you say it so clearly and plainly, it just boggles my mind how you could possibly be serious.

All positions are defendable.

No, they're not, as evidenced by your "things that aren't beliefs are beliefs" argument.

I didn't miss the point at all. Unless of course, you are speaking for all atheists.

I like how you show you missed the point after saying you didn't miss the point. I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm speaking about definitions. All atheists lack the belief in gods. Playing football would be a a prerequisite for a football player. Lacking belief in gods is a prerequisite for being an atheist. Again, that is not in question. By definition, you have to lack that belief. The only question here is whether you also have to hold the belief that gods don't exist.

Did you get it this time?

This is a dishonest statement, if you truly believed in this you wouldn't continue pushing the "lack of belief in "God(s)" argument.

You have no belief in "God(s)", is in reference to, I have no belief about the existence of "God(s)", therefore taking the label atheist (without God) and the beliefs that follow it.

OK, none of this made any sense.

Again, trust in labels is a belief.

You know nothing outside of your mind.

So, are you saying only atheists trust in labels? It seems you might be getting confused here. You might be thinking that atheism is a belief because atheists have beliefs. That's not the case. Everyone has beliefs, atheist and theist alike. "Having beliefs" doesn't define either one.

I don't believe this is what I asked for.

You're right. But I wasn't going to waste my time explaining things to you that I had already explained more than once, and you ignored. Show that you won't completely ignore what I say, and I'll be happy to respond to your questions.

Looks like you've come a step closer to understanding.

I'm right where I've always been, and that is the place where believing something is a belief, and not believing something is not a belief.

You really believe this don't you?

Please, please, tell me you're not being serious anymore. Please, I beg you. I refuse to believe you are actually going to argue that the not believing something is believing that thing.

Ah yes, but one would not be an atheist if they believed that no "God(s)" existed.

Ugh...this is impossible. I guess I should just stop wasting my breath. Maybe you should wait until you're a little older to have conversations like this.

 

[Magic Man]

OK, so what's more irrational: Orias's posts or our continued response to him?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

OK, so what's more irrational: Orias's posts or our continued response to him?

Depends on what the goal or purpose is.

 

[Willamena]

If anyone would actually listen to what he's saying, the thread would stand a chance.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If anyone would actually listen to what he's saying, the thread would stand a chance.

I can only read what he writes. Going by what he's written, his claims fall short.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If anyone would actually listen to what he's saying, the thread would stand a chance.

If you feel you have some sort of insight into what he's saying that all of us ignorant folks are missing, then feel free to present it in a cogent, consistent, straightforward manner. Or, you can simply toss in meaningless, unproductive insults from time to time if you want. It's up to you.

 

[Orias]

I neither believe that the statement "god exists" is right or wrong. I have no belief about whether god exists or not. Try again.

You seemingly run through any idea that you actually know anything. Which you have failed to prove, countless times.

Until you can prove that you know anything, your stance is of high opinion and belief.

Seriously, if atheism truly was not a belief, there wouldn't be atheists saying that atheism is a belief.

Again, if I asked you if you believed in the existence of "God(s)" you would say, "No, I do not believe in the existence of "God(s)". It doesn't matter if you think one stance is "right" or "wrong", since it is you specifically that said what makes one a theist is confidence in their "God", which also leads to the example that you continually strafe around without actually supporting anything. I'm having a hard time understanding why you think you are so certain when you bear the yellow colors.

But then again, I have had atheists tell me that you're either an atheist or a theist. So there is an obvious inconsistency among your ranks.

I wouldn't expect you to debate practically when there is in "fact" atheists that believe and willingly acknowledge their own hypocrisy.

Indeed - so that still doesn't address what belief atheism is. Try again.

That went over your head didn't it?

 

[Orias]

Hmmm...I think this sentence of yours gives us some good information on the problem here. It seems as though your grasp of English, or at least your writing skills are not as advanced as they should be for a discussion like this.

:biglaugh: Sounds like you need to get over yourself.

The word I used was "counterpoints", not "counterparts". Those are two very different things. The second sentence fragment doesn't even make sense in this context. I think what you meant was "They don't even directly respond to my points". Now, the problem could also be an inattention to the words you're typing, but in any case, resolving whatever issue it is that is hindering your clear communication would go a long way towards clearing up this whole mess.

Excuse my shortage of time at school, only having ten minutes to make a single post. But you wouldn't happen to know much about that anyways. When you rush things, you tend to make mistakes. And here you are critisizing a simple mistake made by me.

How very mature and on topic you are.

OK, that doesn't even make sense.

It doesn't make sense that people take the label, "atheist" unto themselves and actually use it as a position to both attack and defend themselves?

OK, I'm almost ready to call Poe. You can't possibly be serious, right? You're actually going to claim "not a belief" is a belief? Really? I mean, I know that's what you've been doing, but when you say it so clearly and plainly, it just boggles my mind how you could possibly be serious.

Sigh...you truly are narrow minded and unable to understand the concept that anything that is thought of as being true is a belief...since like I have stated numerous times, you have failed to prove that you actually know anything.

Go ahead, call POE on what you do not understand, nor care to comprehend. Just remember that it takes one to know one.

For the last time, no where in the definition of "atheism" does it say that it is not a belief. Until you provide any prove (other than what you claim) that atheism flat out says, "Is not a belief" then you are just as fickle as the term itself.

Seriously, now I know that you are not capable of viewing yourself from an outside perspective, and you are COMPLETELY oblivious to your own resourcefulness.

No, they're not, as evidenced by your "things that aren't beliefs are beliefs" argument.

Actually, you have dented nothing but your own will and ability to comprehend writings other than your own.

You have done nothing to provide any claims that atheism is not a belief, other than insult and make irreverent and irrelevant claims towards me.

I like how you show you missed the point after saying you didn't miss the point. I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm speaking about definitions. All atheists lack the belief in gods. Playing football would be a a prerequisite for a football player. Lacking belief in gods is a prerequisite for being an atheist. Again, that is not in question. By definition, you have to lack that belief. The only question here is whether you also have to hold the belief that gods don't exist.

Did you get it this time?

So you are speaking for all atheists. Way to contradict yourself :clap

How can I have an intellectual debate with someone if they can't even remember what they said?

OK, none of this made any sense.

It doesn't make sense that you believe no "God(s)" exist?

That must be why this senseless arguement with you has dragged on for so long.

So, are you saying only atheists trust in labels?

Not at all.

"Assumption if the mother of all ****** ups."-Steven Seagal

I didn't say "Only atheists trust in labels". I said "Trust in labels is a belief(s)". This applies to everyone.

It seems you might be getting confused here. You might be thinking that atheism is a belief because atheists have beliefs. That's not the case. Everyone has beliefs, atheist and theist alike. "Having beliefs" doesn't define either one.

That's not the point at all...:no:

Atheism is a belief because people go out of their way to defend what they believe atheism to be. Not to mention thousands of people take the label, "atheist" unto themselves, oh and don't forget, there are atheists that actually agree that atheism is a belief.

Not just "some part of it", the whole definition of atheism revolutionizes the term "belief", in retrospect it reflects upon Man's ignorance since he truly doesn't know anything outside of himself. Even then, it's a game ghost tag, we search for labels, not necessarily meanings.

You're right. But I wasn't going to waste my time explaining things to you that I had already explained more than once, and you ignored. Show that you won't completely ignore what I say, and I'll be happy to respond to your questions.

FTW.

I'm right where I've always been, and that is the place where believing something is a belief, and not believing something is not a belief.

LOL.

I'm not believing you, is that a belief?

Please, please, tell me you're not being serious anymore. Please, I beg you. I refuse to believe you are actually going to argue that the not believing something is believing that thing.

I didn't figure competent people were the type for begging for mercy.

Ugh...this is impossible. I guess I should just stop wasting my breath. Maybe you should wait until you're a little older to have conversations like this.

Yet another baseless insult that is off topic and has done nothing to provide any doubt in my mind.

You have done nothing but personally attack me and showed disrespect to every single one of my points. Not to mention you have done nothing to provide any evidence that atheism clearly isn't a belief, beside sit there and try and provoke a little anger to show a slight inconsistency.

I see right through you, you know nothing.