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Atheism does not exist

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
If you promise you'll stay with me for awhile, I'll be glad to do that. But the pursuit of understanding takes time. It's a challenge of the integrity of one's worldview -- the unique way in which each person organizes his concepts and words.

And debate requires politeness. You don't have to like me, nor my questions, but you do need to at least pretend civility. Even better would be to actually feel civility toward those with whom we tangle.

Not sure what the point of this sermon is. I've been participating on this thread for several pages now- I'm not going anywhere... nor am I flaming, posting ad-hominems, or doing anything else that is "impolite".

So you wanna go back to the problem with the 'justified true belief' definition of knowledge, or would you like me to prove that no such thing as atheism actually exists?

I'm fine with whatever. Heck, I'll even prove that atheism does exist, if that's better for you.

You're free to do exactly as you please, whether that includes reposing any questions you feel are unanswered, or arguing that atheism exists (or that it does not)- I'm not sure why you're asking me. As long as you include actual content in your posts rather than that empty boasting and hand-waving, I'll respond to whatever you care to offer.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
That wasn't my intent.

I'm just going to give up, now. :)

This is exactly what I've mentioned several times now- that one can argue, disingenuously, for a view of double-truth or relativism, but one cannot live such a view... As soon as one gets off the internet forum- or, as in this case, before that- one unconsciously reverts to behaving as if there is a shared reality, shared facts, that there is such a thing as truth as opposed to falsehood, and that one can be mistaken in what one believes.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Not sure what the point of this sermon is. I've been participating on this thread for several pages now- I'm not going anywhere... nor am I flaming, posting ad-hominems, or doing anything else that is "impolite".

I have found you to be one of the nastiest debaters to come along of late. So I guess opinions differ.

You're free to do exactly as you please, whether that includes reposing any questions you feel are unanswered, or arguing that atheism exists (or that it does not)- I'm not sure why you're asking me. As long as you include actual content in your posts rather than that empty boasting and hand-waving, I'll respond to whatever you care to offer.

No. My fear is that you'll do as you've done so far -- claim to have answered my questions while refusing to answer my questions (meanwhile chastising others for not answering your questions.)

I think I'll just step in to correct your more egregious thought stumbles from time to time. Maybe after you've been at this awhile, I might try to re-engage you in serious dialogue.

Nothing personal. Only so much time in my day.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
I have found you to be one of the nastiest debaters to come along of late. So I guess opinions differ.

Those in glass houses, my friend, those in glass houses...

No. My fear is that you'll do as you've done so far -- claim to have answered my questions while refusing to answer my questions (meanwhile chastising others for not answering your questions.)

And yet, you're still unable to post, quote, or link to any of these supposedly unanswered questions.

How curious.

I think I'll just step in to correct your more egregious thought stumbles from time to time. Maybe after you've been at this awhile, I might try to re-engage you in serious dialogue.

No surprise there- you were obviously setting up a pretext to back out with your last post so I sort of saw this coming... but the invitation for you to back up your talk will remain on the table, where it has been this entire time.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Okay, how about this- I used to believe that the presents I found on Christmas morning had been delivered by a fat man driving a flying sleigh; it turns out this belief was false and they had been left there by my parents.

I have belief, but not of a truth- I am believing a falsehood.
No, you're not, unless you lied above and still believe as you did as a child while knowing better as the adult. Or you are engaging a contradiction: that the gifts having being left by your parents is both true and false. Those are the falsehoods.


What true proposition? My belief is in a false proposition, i.e. "Micheal Jordan is the King of France"...
But we both know you don't actually believe that, and your non-actual example of belief accomplishes nothing more than that you've made a liar of yourself.


A "sighted arbiter"?
Nevermind. Another good analogy bites the dust.


In any case, why "cannot" falsehoods "factor into our personal landscape"? Because they are not false in our estimation, even though they may be nevertheless false?
Because of the principle of excluded middle. We believe only in true propositions, either the one or its negation.


No, ex hypothesi the "fact of the matter" is irrespective of anyone's "personal database" or perspective. That's what "the fact of the matter" means.

Yes. Some of the data in our memories is of the nature of being "regardless of us" (objective).
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
No, you're not, unless you lied above and still believe as you did as a child while knowing better as the adult.

Or you are engaging a contradiction: that the gifts having being left by your parents is both true and false. Those are the falsehoods.

Are you being intentionally obtuse here, or trying to make a point and being coy about it?

As a child, I believed a falsehood- that Santa Claus delivered the presents- but I don't believe it now. That this happened in the past shouldn't mitigate the fact that this belief was false, should it?

But we both know you don't actually believe that, and your non-actual example of belief accomplishes nothing more than that you've made a liar of yourself.

Why does the example have to be "actual"? (And how do you know I don't believe that, after all? )

It now just looks like you're engaged in universal discounting, i.e. categorically dismissing counter-instances to your claim. That I don't happen to believe that Micheal Jordan is the King of France doesn't mean it isn't a perfetly acceptable example- it's possible, if exremely unlikely, that someone (including me) believe this, and it is a falsehood, and thus it suffices as a hypothetical example. Not being actual is not an objection.

We believe only in true propositions, either the one or its negation.

Um...No, we believe true and false propositions. If we only believed in true propositions, no children would ever believe that Santa Claus delivered the presents on Christmas morning, for instance. But many children do and did.

What's the deal here?
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
And yet, you're still unable to post, quote, or link to any of these supposedly unanswered questions.

It's true that you have worn me down and I'm unwilling to try and shame you once again into answering the questions with I've repeatedly listed, quoted and linked for you. (Actually I didn't link any. I just gave you the message number, assuming you could navigate to it without further help.)

But I'm not sure it's a feather in anyone's cap to refuse repeated requests until the requester gets tired of requesting.

Anyway, it's not something I myself would brag about, were I to behave that way.

No surprise there- you were obviously setting up a pretext to back out with your last post so I sort of saw this coming... but the invitation for you to back up your talk will remain on the table, where it has been this entire time.

Yeah. You're a daunting guy. Scary and all.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
the questions with I've repeatedly listed, quoted and linked for you. (Actually I didn't link any. I just gave you the message number, assuming you could navigate to it without further help.)

Lol, ok... Maybe on some other thread. Like I said, put up or shut up.

(and let's just note your flimsy excuse for still avoiding doing so - posting, quoting or linking these mysterious and elusive unanswered questions would have take no more time/effort than posting the message you just posted, and apparently you weren't too worn out to do that)
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Are you being intentionally obtuse here, or trying to make a point and being coy about it?

As a child, I believed a falsehood- that Santa Claus delivered the presents- but I don't believe it now. That this happened in the past shouldn't mitigate the fact that this belief was false, should it?



Why does the example have to be "actual"? (And how do you know I don't believe that, after all? )

It now just looks like you're engaged in universal discounting, i.e. categorically dismissing counter-instances to your claim. That I don't happen to believe that Micheal Jordan is the King of France doesn't mean it isn't a perfetly acceptable example- it's possible, if exremely unlikely, that someone (including me) believe this, and it is a falsehood, and thus it suffices as a hypothetical example. Not being actual is not an objection.



Um...No, we believe true and false propositions. If we only believed in true propositions, no children would ever believe that Santa Claus delivered the presents on Christmas morning, for instance. But many children do and did.

What's the deal here?
Nevermind, then.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Nevermind, then.

Ah, the "I'll just take my ball and go home". Classic.

Is everyone on this forum either a delusional blowhard or an oversensitive crybaby? Good grief.

(and the name of this section is "religious debates", after all; perhaps if you don't like heat you ought to stay away from the kitchen...)
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
(and let's just note your flimsy excuse for still avoiding doing so - posting, quoting or linking these mysterious and elusive unanswered questions would have take no more time/effort than posting the message you just posted, and apparently you weren't too worn out to do that)

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me again and, well... you shouldn't oughta, well... you know, it just ain't right!

To paraphrase a politician upon whom you seem to be modeling yourself, or at least your verbal self.

(Just futzing with you, buddy. Bored and all. Don't let me make you cry.)
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Is everyone on this forum either a delusional blowhard or an oversensitive crybaby? Good grief.

Boy. I'm sure glad you aren't "flaming, posting ad-hominems, or doing anything else that is 'impolite'."

I know you're not doing those things since you yourself asserted that you aren't doing those things... and that's good enough for me!
 

PastorClark

Agnostic Christain
Its just a figment of our imagination, atheism nor agnosticism nor religion being the default position, the only thing being the default position is that of life.

Santa Claus was real, but not in the form of the story's that has been told for thousands of years.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
This statement-
Santa Claus was real

essentially contradicts this one-

but not in the form of the story's that has been told for thousands of years.
The way Santa Claus is said to exist, according to the story we tell our children, i.e. "in the form of the story", is as "being real", as existing as a real person (namely one that lives at the North Pole and delivers presents in a flying sleigh and so on)- that's the story we tell our children, but it is fictional. Santa Claus does not exist. Saying he "is real" is just misleading- he is no more real than Frodo Baggins; saying they are fictional is to say there are no such things (as Santa Claus and Frodo Baggins). All that "exists" is a concept- but even saying a concept "exists" is misleading, because it implies that the concept is instantiated, i.e. corresponds to something in reality. There is no fat man living at the North Pole, making yearly trips to distribute presents- all there "is" are the stories that we tell our children.

And in the same sense atheism doesn't "exist"- there is no entity, i.e. atheism., that exists somewhere. What exists are individual people, who have this particular cognitive state, i.e. "believing" or "holding", a metaphysical position; that there is no God or gods- as well as the various writings and arguments espoused by these people in defense of their position. That's all that exists, insofar as atheism "exists".

But the OP is talking about something else- trying to say that holding a position with respect to what does not exist is logically contradictory, absurd, or incoherent, i.e.

by declaring oneself an atheist he or she is making a logical absurdity. Because an atheist can cloud his or her disposition by holding strong to science they are also holding strong to scientific principles. Meaning to declare the unknown that is not known is a fallacy in thought.

Which appears to be a sort of confused attempt to point out the problem of Nonexistent Objects (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy), which is roughly that one cannot deny that something exists without self-contradiction.

Of course, this is old hat, and there is no absurdity in denying that a concept- like God- is instantiated, i.e. "exists". We need not first posit an object- i.e. God- that we ascribe a property- i.e. non-existence- that would indeed be contradictory. And God is not "unknown" in the relevant sense either- the Bible and the Christian literature provides a more or less clearly delineated definition of this entity, the god-model "God". We certainly know enough to look around and see if there is in fact any evidence of such a thing as God, and we can examine the definition of God to see whether it is logically coherent, whether such a thing could ever exist even in principle (or whether it isn't a contradictory concept- like that of a round square, or of a being that is totally white and totally red all over).

As it happens, the existence of God fails both these tests- i.e. that of empirical evidence and that of conceptual coherence. Thus, we can reasonably conclude that God does not exist- there is nothing in reality corresponding to the Christian concept of God.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Regardless of how you define knowledge or truth, I'm still gonna find it a bit silly for anyone to claim to know that god doesn't exist.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Regardless of how you define knowledge or truth, I'm still gonna find it a bit silly for anyone to claim to know that god doesn't exist.

Depends on the god in question. I have no problem with claiming to know that internally contradictory god-claims are false.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Depends on the god in question. I have no problem with claiming to know that internally contradictory god-claims are false.
Do you have any specific examples?

People always like to say that the omnimax sort of god is logically contradictory but I've never really been convinced of that.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Regardless of how you define knowledge or truth, I'm still gonna find it a bit silly for anyone to claim to know that god doesn't exist.

Really? Even if it can be shown that the claim "God does not exist" meets an epistemic level of evidentiary support comparable to many other things we commonly accept as knowledge? That is the point of discussing what constitutes knowledge, because in these discussions it is extremely common to hear absolutely false criteria for justification- absolute certainty, "100% proof", infallibility, etc.- used to rule out certain claims. And these simply are not the criteria for knowledge in most domains, particularly ones that concern the empirical world and matters of fact.

And as I've argued here and a couple other threads, the Christian God is conceptually incoherent- no such thing could exist, even in principle, because it entails contradictory predicates (such as "the round square", a being that is completely white and completely red all over with respect to itself, or the cat that is not a cat). Other conceptions of God fail a straightforward evidence test.

Imho. It is no sillier than someone to claim to know that god does exist

It is far, far less silly, for the reasons mentioned above. The can be very little doubt that the Christian God, traditionally conceived, does not exist. It is also eminently reasonable to conclude that all other hitherto known god-concepts- Zeus, Ra, Dagon, whatever- have been mere fictions. So far as I know, all gods fail either the conceptual test or the evidence test.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Do you have any specific examples?

People always like to say that the omnimax sort of god is logically contradictory but I've never really been convinced of that.

Sure, from another thread-

(RE the "problem of evil")... prima facie, the attributes of omniscience, omnibenevolence, and omnipotence would preclude the existence of such rampant suffering. Not only does the standard "free will" line miss the mark- because an inability to cause suffering or do evil would not entail a lack of free will in any robust sense (seeing as most of our choices and exercises of our free will do not involve choices between moral options- our choice of what car to drive, what job to have, and so on, are NOT choices between good and evil)- it completely fails to address the problem of natural evil...

... omnipotence would (logically) entail, trivially, the capacity for self-destruction. But a necessary being is a being whose non-existence is contradictory. Thus, it is a logical impossibility that God not exist. Thus, God could not have even the capacity for self-destruction. But the problem runs deeper than this, the more technical we get.

In modal terms-

"x is necessary" means that in every possible world P, x is the case in P
"x is possible" means that there is a possible world P, so that X is the case in P

Now, an omnipotent being would mean that there is one (logically) possible world P such that this being does not exist in P (as a logical consequence of omnipotence including the capacity for self-destruction, self-modification, etc.)- but a necessary being must exist in every possible world. Thus, logically, a necessary being cannot be an omnipotent being...

There are other, similar problems with other claims about God as well, but this should give folks something to chew over for the time being.
 
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