Atheism - I don't understand it

[Caladan]

Hi A-ManESL,

You still didn't answer this:

Perhaps I can ask you a question as well. What is it that you mean by 'God'? or 'believing in God', or 'being bestowed of God's knowledge'. How do you measure or describe your evidence, beliefs, and knowledge? is it a feeling? intuition? gut feeling? humility? appreciation of life?

 

[Looncall]

Mormons call it a "gut feeling" too... although I have experienced more than just a gut feeling...

The Spirit's voice is described as as a whisper...

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 19:11 - 12)
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

those who seek it learn to meditate / calm their emotions / quiet their mind / really listen... it is there, beneath it all. Many have turned to and found the same voice.

How do you know that the voice is not some feature of human psychology?

Why should one accept an exotic explanation when an ordinary one is available?

 

[idea]

If the unicorn is such a sure thing, then of course they'd be able to provide evidence for their claim that there's one at the end of the journey.

...the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) some things have to be experienced to be known... for someone who has never tasted chocolate before, can you give them the knowledge of what chocolate tastes like without actually giving them chocolate and allowing them to actually taste it? of coarse, they will refuse to put the chocolate in their mouth if they have no faith in you... faith precedes the knowledge...

I find it hard to believe that you'd accept every claim that you come across. Surely you have some way of separating the ones worth considering from the ones that aren't, don't you?

by their fruits you shall know them... claims should only be accepted or rejected based upon personal experimentation. If you do not do the experiment, (or do not do it correctly), then it is impossible to know if the claim is true or not.

 

[A Troubled Man]

...the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) some things have to be experienced to be known... for someone who has never tasted chocolate before, can you give them the knowledge of what chocolate tastes like without actually giving them chocolate and allowing them to actually taste it? of coarse, they will refuse to put the chocolate in their mouth if they have no faith in you... faith precedes the knowledge...

Ridiculous, chocolate exists, it can be seen.

 

[idea]

How do you know that the voice is not some feature of human psychology?

human psychology cannot warn me of things outside what my natural senses are able to detect... such as who needs a phone call, or a spider in your shoe...

Why should one accept an exotic explanation when an ordinary one is available?

again, you should only accept it after trying the experiment for yourself.... accept what you personally experience. you know your own mind, and with practice, can come to distinguish the promptings within your thoughts...

 

[ImmortalFlame]

human psychology cannot warn me of things outside what my natural senses are able to detect... such as who needs a phone call, or a spider in your shoe...

I wouldn't say those are things that are "outside what your natural senses are able to detect".

 

[idea]

Ridiculous, chocolate exists, it can be seen.

I didn't say see it, I said taste it.... you won't really understand what you are seeing until you taste it.

 

[A Troubled Man]

My belief in God comes from personal spiritual experiences that I have had. Personal experience is how I gain knowledge on anything...

Unfortunately, personal experience does not gain one knowledge as has been observed throughout history as it lead to people believing the earth was flat and the sun, stars and planets revolved around it.

 

[A Troubled Man]

I didn't say see it, I said taste it.... you won't really understand what you are seeing until you taste it.

You said, "...the evidence of things not seen."

But, that doesn't matter anyways, chocolate can be seen and tasted because it actually exists.

 

[idea]

I wouldn't say those are things that are "outside what your natural senses are able to detect".

I'm not here to argue the validity of my own personal experiences, but instead to entice others to have and recognize the spiritual guidance that they too receive. We all have a conscience - that Jiminy cricket which rests on our shoulder encouraging us to follow a path of light and truth...

 

[idea]

You said, "...the evidence of things not seen."

But, that doesn't matter anyways, chocolate can be seen and tasted because it actually exists.

thoughts actually exist... can you see them?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I'm not here to argue the validity of my own personal experiences, but instead to entice others to have and recognize the spiritual guidance that they too receive. We all have a conscience - that Jiminy cricket which rests on our shoulder encouraging us to follow a path of light and truth...

But you've not indicated any such thing to have any kind of spiritual or supernatural causation whatsoever. Surely it's just human empathy, logic and natural deduction?

 

[idea]

Unfortunately, personal experience does not gain one knowledge as has been observed throughout history as it lead to people believing the earth was flat and the sun, stars and planets revolved around it.

the Earth is relatively flat... if I lay my pencil down on the floor, it doesn't roll away.

draw dots on a balloon, then blow the balloon up - from which point are all others expanding around? which can be called the center?

 

[idea]

But you've not indicated any such thing to have any kind of spiritual or supernatural causation whatsoever. Surely it's just human empathy, logic and natural deduction?

I think human empathy is spiritually motivated, that all things which go against selfishness/anger/pain are... The primary job of the Spirit is to be with us as a comforter, to testify that we are not alone - that there is a God in heaven who looks over every hair on our heads... It's not about putting on magic shows, never-the-less I can know I have received promptings which did not come from my own spirit as I know my own spirit had no access to the information given... Those within the scriptures have shared many examples of what it is to be led by the Spirit, but it is impossible to understand until you experience it for yourself.

 

[Koldo]

I think human empathy is spiritually motivated, that all things which go against selfishness/anger/pain are... The primary job of the Spirit is to be with us as a comforter, to testify that we are not alone - that there is a God in heaven who looks over every hair on our heads... It's not about putting on magic shows, never-the-less I can know I have received promptings which did not come from my own spirit as I know my own spirit had no access to the information given... Those within the scriptures have shared many examples of what it is to be led by the Spirit, but it is impossible to understand until you experience it for yourself.

But what you are doing is attributing events to a particular causation. The question that has to be done is: why did you choose this given cause?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

human psychology cannot warn me of things outside what my natural senses are able to detect... such as who needs a phone call, or a spider in your shoe...

again, you should only accept it after trying the experiment for yourself.... accept what you personally experience. you know your own mind, and with practice, can come to distinguish the promptings within your thoughts...

"With practice"? Are you talking about some sort of rigorous program where you test what you learn from your personal experiences against external evidence?

If that's not what you're talking about, then how can you know that this practice actually does what you say it does?

As an analogy, my martial arts senseis have generally discouraged their students from doing a lot of practice on their own, because the student's uncorrected mistakes can end up getting reinforced. How do you know this isn't going on in what you describe? Where's the check to tell you you're doing it right?

I mean, you do agree that the mind can be tricked, don't you?

 

[jarofthoughts]

thoughts actually exist... can you see them?

With a little help, yes we can:

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think human empathy is spiritually motivated, that all things which go against selfishness/anger/pain are... The primary job of the Spirit is to be with us as a comforter, to testify that we are not alone - that there is a God in heaven who looks over every hair on our heads... It's not about putting on magic shows, never-the-less I can know I have received promptings which did not come from my own spirit as I know my own spirit had no access to the information given... Those within the scriptures have shared many examples of what it is to be led by the Spirit, but it is impossible to understand until you experience it for yourself.

But the question is how could you possibly know or demonstrate any of these things to be so? Just because you believe empathy is "spiritually motivated" doesn't mean it is. I choose to believe empathy is a natural result of human interactivity and social structures - it's an evolutionary mechanism. I don't see any reason whatsoever to attached any spiritual significance to it.

 

[A-ManESL]

The best I can do to help you understand is this: Imagine accepting the world as it is, without seeking parental guidance of the supernatural kind. I don't believe in God as a default position. Not because 'I feel like it'. As for evidence, in regards to many spiritual dogmas, it sure doesn't help them when they are not a true alternative for hard science, and in many cases the soft sciences. I tolerate all dogmas and philosophies until they try to substitute common sense, naturalism, objectivity, freedom of choice, or moderation.

Perhaps I can ask you a question as well. What is it that you mean by 'God'? or 'believing in God', or 'being bestowed of God's knowledge'. How do you measure or describe your evidence, beliefs, and knowledge? is it a feeling? intuition? gut feeling? humility? appreciation of life?

Sorry for not replying immediately. Parts of your question are answered are answered in post 105, 128 though. I don't really know the meaning of "believing in God" in the sense of the word belief being used in this thread. "Gut feeling" is probably the most appropriate term for me for my reason in following the path.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry for not replying immediately. Parts of your question are answered are answered in post 105, 128 though. I don't really know the meaning of "believing in God" in the sense of the word belief being used in this thread. "Gut feeling" is probably the most appropriate term for me for my reason in following the path.

If you can't even say what it means to believe in God, then how can you be surprised or confused by people who don't do it? That's what this thread's about, right?