atheism is a (religious position)

[SkepticThinker]

You posed a question somewhere?

Yes, are you having trouble following along?

How did such a fantastical, amazing, incredibly and infinitely wise deity end up making such a wretched, horrible, awful lot of humans such as ourselves? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

That was my question. You sidestepped it by telling me I should ask myself that. To which I replied that I have, and that's why I'm asking you the question. Care to address it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The universe is a miracle, especially planet earth, look around you.

Cool story bro.

I was pointing out that your assertion was based on a logical fallacy. You didn't address that and just doubled down on it instead. How come?

 

[Copernicus]

The universe is a miracle, especially planet earth, look around you.

It is a miracle only if one presumes a divine agency of some sort, and we have no reason to presume that. Worse, that makes the origin of the divine miracle maker itself an unexplained phenomenon. And that would mean that you have still left the existence of the universe and planet Earth ultimately unexplained, since its causal origin would be left unexplained.

 

[DNB]

Do you think religious people are any better behaved than unbelievers? People do what they want. If they're religious, they'll use their religion to justify any heinous actions they're guilty of. At least the non believers don't have this excuse, and must face the repurcussions of their actions. Knpwing this, wouldn't atheists be more likely to consider the consequences of their actiona than believers?

No, unless your talking about the misguided or insincere Christians.
Christians are better people morally than atheists - you have no absolute moral code - half of you don't believe that fantasizing about the opposite sex is wrong, or even being promiscuous.
Yes, everyone know that killing, kidnapping and abuse is wrong. But, who knows that turning the other cheek is better than retaliating, or that it's better to give than to receive, or that sex is only for marriage, or that drugs and intoxication is wrong, etc...
Your code is much too subjective and naive - we go to the holy Creator for direction, for the world and all its constructs are corrupt and desensitizing.

 

[DNB]

What do you mean by "a miracle?" That it astonishes or awes you; that it has no natural explanation?
Are you arguing incredulity?

It has absolutely no natural explanation - a tree did not derive its existence from the same source as a frog or bird. Humans have no biological relationship with a mountain or sand. The celestial entities do not share a common ancestor with that of the apes.
An intelligent, personal and all powerful being created all things under the sun, and only humans share His image of spiritual cognizance.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christians are better people morally than atheists - you have no absolute moral code - half of you don't believe that fantasizing about the opposite sex is wrong, or even being promiscuous.

That is just not true. The only scientific research into this domain that I'm familiar with shows that the highest level of morality exists in the two extremes: devout religious belief and atheism. It is the nominally religious that are most inclined to make excuses for immoral behavior.

 

[DNB]

Why would we expect? Wouldn't we rather expect that, as the theory of evolution makes clear, we would develop instinctive behaviors that favor survival and breeding? And as I may have mentioned before, humans have evolved basic moral tendencies ─ child nurture and protection, dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group. and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. As well, we've evolved a conscience and a capacity for empathy. These are particularly appropriate for our gregarious nature and the benefits we gain from cooperation within groupings.

Which is?

But only humans act so absurd. They'll drink themselves to death, do drugs until they lose their job, their wife and family, and their health.
Go broke trying to keep up with the Jones', they think that what they wear or their title makes them worthy. They smoke cigarettes which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever, and only consequence.
Man, the highest capacity for intelligence, is less rational than the animal kingdom.

We are under a spiritual warfare: pride, greed, lust, envy, hedonism. Our battle is not about survival, but about selfish vanity and perversion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But only humans act so absurd. They'll drink themselves to death, do drugs until they lose their job, their wife and family, and their health.
Go broke trying to keep up with the Jones', they think that what they wear or their title makes them worthy. They smoke cigarettes which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever, and only consequence.
Man, the highest capacity for intelligence, is less rational than the animal kingdom.

We are under a spiritual warfare: pride, greed, lust, envy, hedonism. Our battle is not about survival, but about selfish vanity and perversion.

Not true. Rats addicted to cocaine will literally starve themselves to death, preferring to press the level than releases a cocaine hit rather than the food lever. Chimps murder, rape, and go to war. No, we are not so far removed from our animal kin.

 

[DNB]

Yes, are you having trouble following along?

How did such a fantastical, amazing, incredibly and infinitely wise deity end up making such a wretched, horrible, awful lot of humans such as ourselves? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

That was my question. You sidestepped it by telling me I should ask myself that. To which I replied that I have, and that's why I'm asking you the question. Care to address it?

ask yourself why your selfish, not 100% honest, lustful, aggressive, etc...
Do you like yourself overall - I'm scared to ask.
Do you think man has been a good steward on this planet, to the earth and his neighbour?

Why do smokers who know that they should stop, still smoke. Or dieters the same thing?

We're all not 100% depraved, I just used the extreme to make a point. But why do we defy the moral codes that we know are right, why don't we treat our neighbours as ourselves. For a myriad of different reasons, but every single oner of them says that it's our fault.
So, it is not beyond us to do good, we see it all the time, everywhere. Therefore, God did not create us helpless to avoid or desist sin - both aptitudes are always present.

Which choice will we make, and why.

 

[DNB]

It is a miracle only if one presumes a divine agency of some sort, and we have no reason to presume that. Worse, that makes the origin of the divine miracle maker itself an unexplained phenomenon. And that would mean that you have still left the existence of the universe and planet Earth ultimately unexplained, since its causal origin would be left unexplained.

You're talking in circles - which came first, the conclusion or the phenomenon? Obviously the latter Mr. technician.

 

[DNB]

That is just not true. The only scientific research into this domain that I'm familiar with shows that the highest level of morality exists in the two extremes: devout religious belief and atheism. It is the nominally religious that are most inclined to make excuses for immoral behavior.

Atheists take for granted man's cognizance of morality, not realizing where this endowment came from. Why do only humans have it?
Thus, God is the author of morality, for the knowledge of sin and righteousness cannot evolve from stardust and protoplasm.

And, no, there is no non human that has any religious inclination, whatsoever.
And, if you don't believe that, then take a dog to the same religious school that you went to, and see how edified or philosophical that he becomes.

 

[DNB]

Not true. Rats addicted to cocaine will literally starve themselves to death, preferring to press the level than releases a cocaine hit rather than the food lever. Chimps murder, rape, and go to war. No, we are not so far removed from our animal kin.

You always try and justify your position with extremely exceptional cases.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why do smokers who know that they should stop, still smoke. Or dieters the same thing?

Exactly. The analogy I use is this: Imagine that you decide to hold your breath and not breath. At first it's easy. But the more time goes on, the more desperate you become for another breath, until you finally have no choice but to breath.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Atheists take for granted man's cognizance of morality, not realizing where this endowment came from. Why do only humans have it?
Thus, God is the author of morality, for the knowledge of sin and righteousness cannot evolve from stardust and protoplasm.

And, no, there is no non human that has any religious inclination, whatsoever.
And, if you don't believe that, then take a dog to the same religious school that you went to, and see how edified or philosophical that he becomes.

This is also somewhat mistaken. The religious behaviors of chimps is currently being studied -- behaviors that, if it were a human doing them, would certainly be considered religion. For example, chimps dancing in awe at certain natural wonders such as a beautiful and powerful waterfall. Another example would be the rock cairns that chimps make ONLY at certain trees. Is chimp religiousity on par with that of humans? No. But it is, in its own very limited way, the beginnings of religion in the species.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You always try and justify your position with extremely exceptional cases.

I don't consider them exceptional cases. As a rule of thumb, the same characteristics we find in human beings can be found in, i.e. chimpanzees -- the difference is one of quantity, not quality. Chimps make spears, humans make hydrogen bombs. It's the same trait, just more advanced in humans.

 

[blü 2]

But only humans act so absurd. They'll drink themselves to death, do drugs until they lose their job, their wife and family, and their health.
Go broke trying to keep up with the Jones', they think that what they wear or their title makes them worthy. They smoke cigarettes which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever, and only consequence.
Man, the highest capacity for intelligence, is less rational than the animal kingdom.

I know of no measure by which we could compare human behavior with any other species, not even our cousins the bonobos, who as you probably know incorporate copulation into social norms.

I acknowledge that a great variety of drugs ─ well over 100 as I understand it ─ are used by a high percentage of young people (say adolescence to 25). How many come to grief through this, I haven't looked up, but I'd expect a high percentage went on to normal lives. (In my student days grass was around, associated particularly with the pop music industry though not unknown with students ─ but alcohol and cigarettes were very normal. Rude and even cruel songs and jokes about women were also usual in quite a few cultures, not least sports.)

But right now the perversion of democracy in the US is a problem with much more alarming consequences for not just the US but the world. Is voting for a narcissist and pathological liar like Donald Trump high on your list?

We are under a spiritual warfare: pride, greed, lust, envy, hedonism. Our battle is not about survival, but about selfish vanity and perversion.

So have I got this right?

Your answer to your own statement "You are not ascribing to man the correct source of his dysfunctionality and depravity" is "selfish vanity and perversion" ?

With respect, that's too vague, general and simple to be much help. And neither of these problems will be solved or ameliorated by prayer. Guided by reason, we need to identify the real problems, and their root causes, and go looking for the best solutions. That statement is too simple and superficial itself, but at least it's facing in the correct direction.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know of no measure by which we could compare human behavior with any other species, not even our cousins the bonobos, who as you probably know incorporate copulation into social norms.

Seriously? I think you are being disingenuous. The comparisons are pretty obvious.

 

[F1fan]

But only humans act so absurd. They'll drink themselves to death, do drugs until they lose their job, their wife and family, and their health.
Go broke trying to keep up with the Jones', they think that what they wear or their title makes them worthy. They smoke cigarettes which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever, and only consequence.

All that while being religious.

Man, the highest capacity for intelligence, is less rational than the animal kingdom.

Reasoning is a learned skill while emotions come naturally. We humans evolved the capacity for abstract thought but we kept our primitive fight or flight mechanism, and this causes conflict. Our best approach is learning how to manage our emotions.

We are under a spiritual warfare: pride, greed, lust, envy, hedonism. Our battle is not about survival, but about selfish vanity and perversion.

These are emotional temptations, and how does your religion help you manage these?

 

[blü 2]

The celestial entities do not share a common ancestor with that of the apes.

There is, of course, no evidence to suggest that the "celestial entities" have objective existence. Rather they are concepts, ideas, things imagined, in individual brains, which explains why they never appear, say or do.

But if you insist they have objective existence, in what taxonomic group do they belong?

 

[blü 2]

Seriously? I think you are being disingenuous. The comparisons are pretty obvious.

Sorry. I didn't repeat the earlier context. Yes, we can compare humans with other critters, I agree, but we can't conclude from any of that that we or they or just the penguins are our moral superiors or inferiors. Instead, we're what humans are, and the bonobos (mentioned above) and the penguins (which I just threw in) are respectively what bonobos, and penguins, are. They are better bonobos and penguins than we are, and we are better humans than they are.

So there's no objective basis for requiring human values from them, no point in asking if humans are good penguins.