• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

atheism is a (religious position)

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Are you telling us that belief in Gods, no matter which ones, are functional towards survival?

I might have no quarrel with that, depending on your reply.

Ciao

- viole
The intuition of the Divine can be interpreted in a number of different ways, including animism, polytheism, and monotheism. Yes, this intuition is functional towards survival, which is why it was selected for.

I'm not even claiming that it is completely accurate. The human inclination to intuit agency sometimes leads us to assume agency when no agency exists. But let's say you hear a rustling in the bushes. If you assume it is a wild animal and run away, but it was simply a loose branch falling, no harm is done. On the other hand, if it is a tiger, and you do NOT run away, you are lunch. :)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How does not that answer your post? I do not claim omniscience here , so I might have really failed here. I am a human, after all.

So, can you make it please explicit how I did not answer that? So that I correct my error. What was it?

Ciao

- viole
Reread my post and respond without the soap box.. No explanation needed.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, because human beings intuit the Divine.

How is this sentence practically different from "I have a gut feeling that God exists"?

People inuit danger in a dark basement, too; is this a sign that the boogeyman is real?

You cannot say the same for Mother Goose. Our intuition has evolved because it helps us survive, because it is selected for. We should not just casually dismiss it.

What's selected for is a tendency to Type II errors and pareidolia.


... which makes sense evolutionarily: if you hear a rustle in the bushes, the cost of an error can vary wildly:

- if you think it's a predator but it's really the wind, you expend a bit of extra energy running away.

- if you think it's the wind but it's really a predator, you're dead.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Those not willing to affiliate with a religious or other organization would indeed apply regardless of religious belief,
It is not my intent to imply that every person should be involved in a religious community. I do not think an atheist somehow chooses not to believe in God. Rather, they simply see no reason to, and so cannot bring themselves to embrace a belief that seems irrational to them. For such a person to attend church would be extremely awkward, a very bad match. They would be a fish out of water, and that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

What I AM saying is simply what the science says, that an atheist is more likely to be diagnosed with mental illness than someone regularly involved with a religious community.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
How is this sentence practically different from "I have a gut feeling that God exists"?
It is not different at all.
People inuit danger in a dark basement, too; is this a sign that the boogeyman is real?
You are correct that the intuition is not guaranteed to be accurate.

However, we should not casually cast it aside. If there is a rustling in the bushes, and a person runs away and it was just a broken branch falling, no harm is done. But if it was a tiger, and they do not run away, they are lunch. :)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is not my intent to imply that every person should be involved in a religious community. I do not think an atheist somehow chooses not to believe in God. Rather, they simply see no reason to, and so cannot bring themselves to embrace a belief that seems irrational to them. For such a person to attend church would be extremely awkward, a very bad match. They would be a fish out of water, and that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

What I AM saying is simply what the science says, that an atheist is more likely to be diagnosed with mental illness than someone regularly involved with a religious community.
Insufficient evidence to conclude what is simply what science says." One research study that does not refer specifically to one religious belief or non-belief cannot translate to the conclusion that atheists and agnostics cannot have a "existential"commitment that can provide a "sense that of coherence," imparting deep meaning and an organizing framework to individual life experience. This is culturally dependent research, and does not include the broader international basis for cultural relationships and belief including atheism, which is prevalent in other countries than the USA.

There may be a relationship in countries where there is a heavy pressure for individuals to comply with the traditional religious beliefs resulting in a lot of emotional and psychological problems resulting health problems for not belonging. Actually this is to a degree a problem with me as a Baha'i in a Conservative religious North Carolina culture.

A bit of contrary reference of Nordic countries where atheism/agnosticism is prevalent and the importance of religion is far less than other countries. They are Happy Campers where there is community support for a diversity of beliefs including atheists.


From 2013 until today, every time the World Happiness Report (WHR) has published its annual ranking of countries, the five Nordic countries – Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Iceland – have all been in the top ten, with Nordic countries occupying the top three spots in 2017, 2018, and 2019. Clearly, when it comes to the level of average life evaluations, the Nordic states are doing something right, but Nordic exceptionalism isn’t confined to citizen’s happiness. No matter whether we look at the state of democracy and political rights, lack of corruption, trust between citizens, felt safety, social cohesion, gender equality, equal distribution of incomes, Human Development Index, or many other global comparisons, one tends to find the Nordic countries in the global top spots.
 
Last edited:

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The intuition of the Divine can be interpreted in a number of different ways, including animism, polytheism, and monotheism. Yes, this intuition is functional towards survival, which is why it was selected for.
Fine with me.
The intuition of the Divine can be interpreted in a number of different ways, including animism, polytheism, and monotheism. Yes, this intuition is functional towards survival, which is why it was selected for.

I'm not even claiming that it is completely accurate. The human inclination to intuit agency sometimes leads us to assume agency when no agency exists. But let's say you hear a rustling in the bushes. If you assume it is a wild animal and run away, but it was simply a loose branch falling, no harm is done. On the other hand, if it is a tiger, and you do NOT run away, you are lunch. :)
no quarrel with that whatsover.

Ciao

- viole
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What I AM saying is simply what the science says, that an atheist is more likely to be diagnosed with mental illness than someone regularly involved with a religious community.

I was unaware that this was the case. Tried a quick search and found this as relates to a study in Korea:

Objective
The question of whether religion has beneficial or detrimental effects on the mental well-being of the adult individual is debatable. Because most Korean citizens are free to select their own religion, there is a higher proportion of non-believers than believers among the Korean population. The aim of this research was to investigate the association between spiritual values and Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition mental disorders in Korea across all types of belief systems, including Koreans not affiliated with a particular religion.
Results
Strong spiritual values were positively associated with increased rates of current depressive disorder and decreased rates of current alcohol use disorder. Using "atheist" as the reference category, Catholics had higher lifetime odds of single episodes of depression whilst Protestants had higher lifetime odds of anxiety disorder and lower lifetime odds of alcohol use disorders.


Not a full literature search of course, but the authors of the paper seem to think there is still some debate and question regarding the relationship to mental illness and religious belief. To me, it would appear that the jury is still out on this one.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Reread my post and respond without the soap box.. No explanation needed.
In my experience such replies mean: let us hope she does not know what post I mean.

That is usually what people do when they have a problem and hope that the source of the problem is forgotten, or difficult to retrieve.

a common tactics among creationists.

so, i would strongly suggest, in the interest of tracing, that you address the post you mean, and how my reply did not address that.

ciao

- viole
 

Starise

Member
There were atheists long before the theory of evolution was formulated.

I am not saying this isn't true or hasn't been true. I'm saying that evolution is a prominent feature in modern atheist thought. .

Atheism isn't a religion.

It's funny how often I run into this chauvinism and conceit from theists: this idea - like you're arguing here - that the presence or absence of a tenet of your beliefs is enough to define someone else's belief system.

Call it what you will and I'm not arguing BTW. I have focused on this subject. The only comparisons I made were elicited by others. This wasn't about my beliefs.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I was unaware that this was the case. Tried a quick search and found this as relates to a study in Korea:

Objective
The question of whether religion has beneficial or detrimental effects on the mental well-being of the adult individual is debatable. Because most Korean citizens are free to select their own religion, there is a higher proportion of non-believers than believers among the Korean population. The aim of this research was to investigate the association between spiritual values and Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition mental disorders in Korea across all types of belief systems, including Koreans not affiliated with a particular religion.
Results
Strong spiritual values were positively associated with increased rates of current depressive disorder and decreased rates of current alcohol use disorder. Using "atheist" as the reference category, Catholics had higher lifetime odds of single episodes of depression whilst Protestants had higher lifetime odds of anxiety disorder and lower lifetime odds of alcohol use disorders.


Not a full literature search of course, but the authors of the paper seem to think there is still some debate and question regarding the relationship to mental illness and religious belief. To me, it would appear that the jury is still out on this one.
A bit of contrary reference of Nordic countries where atheism/agnosticism is prevalent and the importance of religion is far less than other countries. They are Happy Campers where there is community support for a diversity of beliefs including atheists.

The Nordic Exceptionalism: What Explains Why the Nordic Countries Are Constantly Among the Happiest in the World

The World Happiness Report is a publication of the Sustainable Development Solutions Network, powered by the Gallup World Poll data.
worldhappiness.report

From 2013 until today, every time the World Happiness Report (WHR) has published its annual ranking of countries, the five Nordic countries – Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Iceland – have all been in the top ten, with Nordic countries occupying the top three spots in 2017, 2018, and 2019. Clearly, when it comes to the level of average life evaluations, the Nordic states are doing something right, but Nordic exceptionalism isn’t confined to citizen’s happiness. No matter whether we look at the state of democracy and political rights, lack of corruption, trust between citizens, felt safety, social cohesion, gender equality, equal distribution of incomes, Human Development Index, or many other global comparisons, one tends to find the Nordic countries in the global top spots.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am not saying this isn't true or hasn't been true. I'm saying that evolution is a prominent feature in modern atheist thought. .
Again you are ignoring the fact that the belief in atheism has no relationship to the sciences of evolution.

Evolution is a prominent feature of ALL of science.

The majority of Christians in the USA and Europe believe in Theistic Evolution. which you misrepresented in a previous post.

Charles Darwin and the early advocates of evolution were Christians.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm not going to continue to debate this with you. Many studies have replicated the results. To me, that makes it beyond dispute. You certainly have the right to disagree.
You won't continue the debate, because your one sided bias won't acknowledge my posts and sources and respond coherently
 
Last edited:

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I was unaware that this was the case. Tried a quick search and found this as relates to a study in Korea:

Objective
The question of whether religion has beneficial or detrimental effects on the mental well-being of the adult individual is debatable. Because most Korean citizens are free to select their own religion, there is a higher proportion of non-believers than believers among the Korean population. The aim of this research was to investigate the association between spiritual values and Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition mental disorders in Korea across all types of belief systems, including Koreans not affiliated with a particular religion.
Results
Strong spiritual values were positively associated with increased rates of current depressive disorder and decreased rates of current alcohol use disorder. Using "atheist" as the reference category, Catholics had higher lifetime odds of single episodes of depression whilst Protestants had higher lifetime odds of anxiety disorder and lower lifetime odds of alcohol use disorders.


Not a full literature search of course, but the authors of the paper seem to think there is still some debate and question regarding the relationship to mental illness and religious belief. To me, it would appear that the jury is still out on this one.
One of the things I would point out is that your study compares religious values, whereas the studies I refer to refer to involvement in religious communities. A person can have all sorts of religious values and not attend church.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
One of the things I would point out is that your study compares religious values, whereas the studies I refer to refer to involvement in religious communities. A person can have all sorts of religious values and not attend church.
Therefore atheism and agnosticism is not an issue as the question of who is involved with their religious(?) or other support communities.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Therefore atheism and agnosticism is not an issue as the question of who is involved with their religious(?) or other support communities.
I would assume so. They are not really sure exactly what it is about religious communities that holds the magic. It will likely end up being some complicated confluence of many factors. But it is not which beliefs a person holds, nor is it only the socialization.
 

Starise

Member
No problem understanding your posts. There is not a problem of atheism having traits. Actually atheism is not a religion as such, Atheists may belong to organizations that may be called religions like Unitarian Universalists. The only specific trait I know of is atheists do not believe in Gods. No beliefs are not held on a whim.
Every identifyible classified thing has traits. This isn't to say there aren't individual distinctive features.

I am not an atheist, but I have had many discussions with them.

The reason they don't "believe in God" is because the only aspect of God that they know about are the images, and the stories, and the irrational statements and behaviors of those that do "believe in God". Irrational, they feel, because logic and observation tells them that these ARE stories and not facts. What facts we do have tell a different story. So we can't really blame them for feeling as they do about it.

Unfortunately that's where they stop. And also unfortunately that's where a lot of theists stop, too. No one bothers to look past the stories and the facts to the real experience of faith in God. To what that means and to what it provides for a person. Because it's hard to express in words. And because it's somewhat unique to everyone.

I could agree with that statement as a general assumption about many of them. It's pretty common practice for some of them to whittle a larger argument to argue it better. On some level, I think there is awareness that many of the caricatures are just that.

es they do not believe in God and no they never ground their belief in the theory of evolution.

Atheists most often find their belief in the lack of evidence for Gods, and the lack of evidence of the supernatural mythical beliefs and the hands on warrior God of ancient scripture. This has a one on one relationship of the definition of atheism.

Can you support this with a reference concerning how atheism is defined and supported?

Again most Christians of Europe and the USA believe in Theistic evolution.

One interesting fact of the polls is that there is a relationship between education level and support of evolution. The higher the education level the more likely people with support of evolution

Well it's funny because in almost any discussion I have evolution comes up.
Good point that they may also see lack of evidence as a reason for their belief. Many an atheist has recanted that based on the experiences they doubted actually happening to them.

Again, this discussion isn't about what Christians believe. Why are you attempting to leverage what we believe in a discussion about what they believe?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One of the things I would point out is that your study compares religious values, whereas the studies I refer to refer to involvement in religious communities. A person can have all sorts of religious values and not attend church.

I would be curious if there is a study comparing social atheist to non-social atheist. Social in the sense that they participate in in-person communal activities. If there is equal or better improvement of physical and mental health for the social over the non-social atheist as compared to the religious vs non-religious studies, what would be your take-away regarding the significance of religious belief as it relates to mental and/or physical health?

I also found the following interesting:

New research has set out to examine the broad mental health differences in the sub-categories constituting the "nones." Interestingly, a growing number of studies suggest that people possessing strong religious beliefs and convinced atheists tend to share similarly positive mental health. The worst mental health is observed in those with more ambiguous, confused, and weaker religious or spiritual beliefs.
...
For example, a just-published study by Dr. Joseph Baker at East Tennessee State University indicates that atheists have the best mental health among the "nones," similar to that of the highly-religious. In contrast, "non-affiliated theists" had the poorest mental health.
These findings overlap with a classic British study which found that the "spiritual but not religious" had higher levels of drug dependency, abnormal eating, generalized anxiety disorder, neurotic disorders, and use of psychotropic medication, in comparison with both religious people and people who were "neither religious nor spiritual."
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Well, you should have. Since that is exactly what I claim to know.

I know there is no god. And I claim that everybody else should know that too.

And that is why I qualify as a gnostic atheist.

Ciao

- viole

Well, you should have read post #951, where I conceded his point and clarified my comment.

Ciao
 
Top