Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

[John53]

I've seen it mischaracterized far too many times to simply label it as "doesn't matter."

As the poll implies, there are people out there willing to propagate lies even AFTER being told the exact way in which they are incorrect when pretending that atheism (alone) is the positive assertion that "God does not exist."

And these liars even ignore simple, logical examples that demonstrate this FACT (as in, something that cannot be denied without lying once one is given the knowledge). Like the following, super-simple example: If simply lacking belief in God is a "belief" in and of itself, then it is also a "belief" to decide not to believe people who say that Bigfoot or vampires or fairies or Cthulu are real. I'm not saying those things aren't real... and the person who doesn't outright believe fanciful claims like those doesn't have to say that either. They just withhold belief until the person making the claim ponies up the evidence.

Until then, I can tell you precisely what "doesn't matter" in these types of cases specifically, where absolutely nothing can be demonstrated to be "on the line": their claims.

And nothing we say will change their minds or their hatred of atheists.

 

[Sheldon]

It's discriminatory against us apathetic atheists.

I'm struggling to overcome my ambivalence towards your apathy.

However all are welcome to participate. Oh, and don't forget to vote, or not then as the case may be.

 

[Sheldon]

And nothing we say will change their minds or their hatred of atheists.

Quite possibly, but I'd like to examine it, and try and understand the rationale. A little masochistic but that's another story.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Well to be honest that very claim prompted me to start the thread.

disbelief
noun

1. inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.

Now I don't see anything in the definition there that suggests a belief to me? Parenthetically I am an atheist, because I don't believe in any deity or deities, thus I disbelieve in any extant deity, I do not hold a belief no deity exists, as I understand in its broadest sense the concept of a deity seems unfalsifiable to me, and I cannot meet the burden of proof for such a belief. I disbelieve all unfalsifiable claims, and I remain agnostic about them, as I must.

That seem sound rationale to me, maybe someone else disagrees?

The difficult part is trying to decide what applies to all atheists. For example, based on what you said, I don't think you're holding a belief on the subject. But if other atheists start saying things like "There is no God", they start to risk having the burden of proof. Though probably quite a few meant to say, "I don't believe there is a God." and misspoke.

 

[Sheldon]

Depends on the definition of "atheism" and "belief," and which dictionary one is using to define them,

Which dictionary defines atheism as a belief? Could you quote and link one please.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

And nothing we say will change their minds or their hatred of atheists.

You sure about that? I'm not. I don't believe your claim, in other words. Please demonstrate how you have come to know this.

Besides, the more they out themselves as holding these bigoted views against the prescriptions of their chosen faith (provided such things are against the prescriptions of their faith), the better, in my opinion. The more people demonstrate that their religion is just a loose sham that they hide behind in order to pretend that they are pious, the more and faster people who care about consistency and integrity will turn from religion with a bad taste in their mouths. I believe that certain specific and vocal religions can die a slow death of their own doing easily enough. And if I can help speed that on by getting them to talk more and more about it? Hahaha... well there you have it. Consider me on the job.

 

[Sheldon]

The difficult part is trying to decide what applies to all atheists.

No, to be clear this is about atheism as defined in the dictionary, and I limited that way quite deliberately for a reason. I accept that there are atheists who make the claim no deity exists, but that is not what I am asking. With just the knowledge that someone is an atheist the commonly understood definition does not support the claim it is a belief.

 

[John53]

You sure about that? I'm not. I don't believe your claim, in other words. Please demonstrate how you have come to know this.

Besides, the more they out themselves as holding these bigoted views against the prescriptions of their chosen faith (provided such things are against the prescriptions of their faith), the better, in my opinion. The more people demonstrate that their religion is just a loose sham that they hide behind in order to pretend that they are pious, the more and faster people who care about consistency and integrity will turn from religion with a bad taste in their mouths. I believe that certain specific and vocal religions can die a slow death of their own doing easily enough. And if I can help speed that on by getting them to talk more and more about it? Hahaha... well there you have it. Consider me on the job.

Years and years of smashing my head into the corner of the computer desk at the sheer ignorance, smugness and stupidity of some people.

 

[Lain]

Which dictionary defines atheism as a belief? Could you quote and link one please.

What are we counting as a dictionary? One might go to dictionary.com and find "the doctrine or belief that there is no God," which is it's first definition, or maybe the second one it has "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings." I guess one might answer "yes" or "no" based on which one they chose, but which one should be chosen or is correct is another discussion.

One might go to the online Cambridge dictionary if one likes that university prestige on their sources, and find their only definition which says "the belief that God does not exist."

I personally would count something like the SEP or IEP, although they are explicitly encyclopedias, to be useful for being a dictionary on positions, and they both give a multitude of definitions including but not limited to: "It has come to be widely accepted that to be an atheist is to affirm the non-existence of God. Anthony Flew (1984) called this positive atheism, whereas to lack a belief that God or gods exist is to be a negative atheist. Parallels for this use of the term would be terms such as “amoral,” “atypical,” or “asymmetrical.” So negative atheism would includes someone who has never reflected on the question of whether or not God exists and has no opinion about the matter and someone who had thought about the matter a great deal and has concluded either that she has insufficient evidence to decide the question, or that the question cannot be resolved in principle." There is also "If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods)."

Take your pick man. With the IEP/SEP quotes I bolded the parts I consider definitional there.

And if you prefer physical book dictionaries I don't own any, I'm totally digital in this, sorry about that.

Edit: you asked for links too, so here are links, hope they work...

Definition of atheism | Dictionary.com
atheism
Atheism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Second edit, adding even more dictionaries which say it is a "belief" or include as one definition that it is a "belief" (although this does not answer the question of how we should define belief):

Chambers – Search Chambers
atheism | meaning of atheism in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE
atheism | Free On-Line English Dictionary | Thesaurus | Children's, Intermediate Dictionary | Wordsmyth
atheism - Wiktionary

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Atheism is a belief that there is no God.

No God-with-a-capital-G?

Do you think polytheists are atheists?

 

[Kenny]

I disagree, as does the dictionary, but please cast your vote then.

I disagree with your position as does the dictionary in the definition of faith to wit:

1. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

No, to be clear this is about atheism as defined in the dictionary, and I limited that way quite deliberately for a reason. I accept that there are atheists who make the claim no deity exists, but that is not what I am asking. With just the knowledge that someone is an atheist the commonly understood definition does not support the claim it is a belief.

I see.

Well in that case, I concede.

There is nothing wrong with the definition of atheism.

Though there are still ways in which an atheist in a debate can work their way into a corner, in which if they use the definition, citing "atheism", it can't protect them from losing the argument. Because they may not have properly acted within dictionary definitions.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Years and years of smashing my head into the corner of the computer desk at the sheer ignorance, smugness and stupidity of some people.

I can appreciate that. I have another outlook on it, however. That eventually it can/will be understood how foolish some of that stuff appears to unbiased onlookers. The current trend away from the churches, and away from belief in some specific societies is, I believe, just such an effect being witnessed. I know it is more than just myself who reads the comments to be had from one side as completely falling short of the cogency of those being made by the other side, and that has real effects, even if the change being seen is very very slow in comparison to the average human life span. I am a man of much patience, and as such can easily be in it for the long game. Hoping that my kids, or my kids' kids reap some benefits of a more open-minded society.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I disagree with your position as does the dictionary in the definition of faith to wit:

1. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.

Please describe, in detail, what the definition of "faith" has to do with the definition of atheism. I am, quite seriously, not understanding why you brought this into the discussion.

Are you asserting that an "atheist" (knowing nothing else about a person) has "faith" that there is no God to be believed in? Is that what you are asserting by bringing the definition of "faith" into the discussion?

 

[Sheldon]

Years and years of smashing my head into the corner of the computer desk at the sheer ignorance, smugness and stupidity of some people.

I hear that, I must really have a masochistic streak in me.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

To specifically answer this question directly, and, to be sure, this is only my opinion:
I believe that people of various beliefs, who feel threatened by those who do not believe them, try to spin the position of non-belief in the eyes of the non-believer themselves in an attempt to convince the non-believer that their position of non-belief is no different from their position of belief - thereby implicating the non-believer in doing the same thing that they may criticize the believer for doing (i.e. making outrageous, unevidenced claims), and rendering any non-belief as a form of hypocrisy. And once the non-belief is straw-manned as a hypocrisy, then the believer hopes that it will be easy to "knock down" for the benefit of any onlookers that also might be present to witness the discussion/debate.

In other words, per usual, the tactic is not to actually bolster your own side of the argument, or provide actual evidence of your claims, but to discredit any and all competition.

 

[Suave]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God or gods. Hence, by definition, atheism is not a belief. I'm curious to know who among us can't just simply comprehend the dictionary's definition of atheism?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Atheism is a belief that there is no God.

Nope.

That is as wrong as saying that theism is a belief in Quetzocoatl.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's absurd,

Parmesan really? Stilton every time, start a thread with a poll, xmas is coming and I shall be cheese shopping soon.

Huntsman.

 

[firedragon]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

Your two questions on your so called survey I think is probably the most dishonest, false dichotomy I have ever seen in this forum from the day I joined.

Peace.