Atheism is not a default position

[Thief]

Our point is that before they hear the word "God", they are implicitly atheist, as they lack a belief in God's existence. This is due to them not being familiar with the concept of God.

There default position would then be.....back to God.
unless you're content to send the little ones to hell.

I believe in life after death.
Regardless....we die and God and heaven come around to see what stands from the dust.

So...a little one dies.....what does heaven do about it?
An declared atheist dies....what does heaven do about it?

 

[leibowde84]

There default position would then be.....back to God.
unless you're content to send the little ones to hell.

I believe in life after death.
Regardless....we die and God and heaven come around to see what stands from the dust.

So...a little one dies.....what does heaven do about it?
An declared atheist dies....what does heaven do about it?

1. I don't think that belief is necessary to get into heaven, but that is merely my belief and has nothing to do with this topic.

2. We are discussing implicit atheism, so there is no declaration at all. They are atheists implicitly. They aren't claiming anything, as, if they were, it would not be "implicit".

 

[Thief]

Continuing this thought experiment further, assuming that those pre-schoolers had never heard the word "god" before - which god do you think they believed in?

If the answer is none, then they were implicit atheists.
If the answer is anything other than none, then it doesn't follow the rules of your thought experiment.

Before the word is uttered, the subjects are in an implicit state. After the word is uttered, the subjects will begin making explicit decisions, never again being in the implicit state.

Atheism is not implied.
You actually think it's like a sticker you can paste on the unsuspecting?
Say the word atheist to the same class of children....
Tell them they are atheists.....but don't say the 'g' word.

See then how far your 'implication' takes you.

 

[leibowde84]

Atheism is not implied.
You actually think it's like a sticker you can paste on the unsuspecting?
Say the word atheist to the same class of children....
Tell them they are atheists.....but don't say the 'g' word.

See then how far your 'implication' takes you.

No stickers necessary, as "implicit" in this context means "true by definition". The entire point is that the children don't have the ability to be theists and are, thus, atheists until they are introduced to and believe in the existence of God or gods.

It seems like your argument is based entirely on the fact that the definition of atheism doesn't fit in with your subjective beliefs concerning the nature of God.

 

[Thief]

No stickers necessary, as "implicit" in this context means "true by definition". The entire point is that the children don't have the ability to be theists and are, thus, atheists until they are introduced to and believe in the existence of God or gods.

It seems like your argument is based entirely on the fact that the definition of atheism doesn't fit in with your subjective beliefs concerning the nature of God.

Nay.
The ability is there.
All you do is mention....god.
The consideration will begin.
Curiosity is the default nature.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Atheism is not implied.
You actually think it's like a sticker you can paste on the unsuspecting?
Say the word atheist to the same class of children....
Tell them they are atheists.....but don't say the 'g' word.

See then how far your 'implication' takes you.

Mathematician is not implied.
You actually think it's like a sticker you can paste of the unsuspecting?
Say the word "mathematician" to the same class of children....
Tell them they are mathematicians.... but don't say the word "Calculus".

See then how far your 'implication' takes you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Man, just assume we are talking about math instead of god since god is apparently a touchy subject for you.
Before children are taught how to count, or what numbers even are, are they mathematicians?
Aren't babies, in the implicit state, entirely unaware of Math as a whole?
I'm sure you wouldn't argue that babies are born with an innate understanding of Algebra or Geometry, right?

 

[leibowde84]

Nay.
The ability is there.
All you do is mention....god.
The consideration will begin.
Curiosity is the default nature.

Until a child holds a belief in God, they are "without" or "lack" a belief in the existence of God. Thus, until they are a "theist", they are "atheist" implicitly by definition.

 

[Thief]

Children can't believe in atheism,
To do so you have to tell them they ARE atheists.

Having done that.....you have to explain the word without saying ....God.
good luck.

ignorance we are born with....not born to.

 

[Thief]

Mathematician is not implied.
You actually think it's like a sticker you can paste of the unsuspecting?
Say the word "mathematician" to the same class of children....
Tell them they are mathematicians.... but don't say the word "Calculus".

See then how far your 'implication' takes you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Man, just assume we are talking about math instead of god since god is apparently a touchy subject for you.
Before children are taught how to count, or what numbers even are, are they mathematicians?
Aren't babies, in the implicit state, entirely unaware of Math as a whole?
I'm sure you wouldn't argue that babies are born with an innate understanding of Algebra or Geometry, right?

Without numbers they are not mathematicians.
Without consideration made they are not atheists.

 

[leibowde84]

Children can't believe in atheism,
To do so you have to tell them they ARE atheists.

Having done that.....you have to explain the word without saying ....God.
good luck.

ignorance we are with....not born to.

So, you are claiming that we are not born ignorant? Where are you getting the requirement for consideration?

 

[Thief]

So, you are claiming that we are not born ignorant? Where are you getting the requirement for consideration?

Atheism is a declaration.

Surely you don't go around making declaration ....not having considered the statement.

 

[leibowde84]

Without numbers they are not mathematicians.
Without consideration made they are not atheists.

Implicit means that there is no consideration at all. Because they are not theists, they must be atheists ("without theism"). No belief at all required and no acknowledgement of their implicit atheism required either. We are all born without beliefs in concepts we are unfamiliar with. There is no requirement to give them a chance to choose. The minute that they start believing in God, they become theists.

 

[leibowde84]

Atheism is a declaration.

Surely you don't go around making declaration ....not having considered the statement.

How is implicit atheism a declaration?

 

[leibowde84]

Atheism is a declaration.

Surely you don't go around making declaration ....not having considered the statement.

Of course this is impossible, but, since implicit atheism is in no way a declaration (unlike explicit atheism), this point is irrelevant.

 

[Thief]

How is implicit atheism a declaration?

I don't believe in putting labels un the unsuspecting to make myself feel better.

Without the declaration.....the child is free of denial.
You won't hear the words ....there is no god....unless you tell them

 

[McBell]

not a clever retort.....but I did use it on someone else.

so....logic...for years you claim....
and you still don't believe in God.....

seems odd to me.

with all that evidence over your head.

I have already told you numerous times over the years that I have a much higher standard for evidence than you do.

Interesting that for all your posts of "empty retort" you are the one with most empty retorts.

 

[McBell]

Like if you don't know about the cancer in your gut....your ignorance will save you....
I don't think so.

Who has made this claim?
I mean other than yourself so you have a strawman to attack?

Stand before God and heaven and pronounce denial.
That you are able to speak.....the line will be drawn.
The question will be simple.....'what say ye?'

having to plead ignorance having lived to the ability to draw a line......
ignorance won't work.

wow.
You even half *** attack your strawmen.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't believe in putting labels un the unsuspecting to make myself feel better.

Without the declaration.....the child is free of denial.
You won't hear the words ....there is no god....unless you tell them

That's ok, because if there was a declaration of any kind, it wouldn't be "implicit atheism", as the term doesn't require any belief that God does not exist. All that is required is the lack of the belief. As long as a person of any age does not believe in the existence of God, they are atheist by definition. It's not a label, as you claim. It's a description of the fact that theism is not yet present.

 

[jonathan180iq]

If you refuse to accept a difference between things that are implicit and explicit then there's really no conversation to be had.

Your arguments are correct, if you're talking about explicit atheism. But no one has ever asserted that babies are explicit atheists - so there's no value in being right about something that is without contention.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't believe in putting labels un the unsuspecting to make myself feel better.

Without the declaration.....the child is free of denial.
You won't hear the words ....there is no god....unless you tell them

Btw, you are arguing with yourself. No one is claiming that babies are explicitly atheist, meaning that they have considered the proposition.