Atheism is not anti-theism. Anti-theism is not atheism.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is anyone else getting an "atheists are fine as long as they know their place and don't get uppity" vibe from this thread?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Since when is anti-theism "extreme?"

Not extreme in the sense of terrorism or anything if that is what you suspect I mean.

I mean:

extreme

adjective

1. 1.
   reaching a high or the highest degree; very great.
   "extreme cold"
2. 2.
   furthest from the centre or a given point.
   "the extreme north-west of Scotland"
   
   

I am saying that if neutral is in the middle of the spectrum, the atheists I am referring to are on the extreme end of that spectrum which is anti theist. Pro theist would be the other extreme. Those who couldn't care less are in the middle.

 

[Jim]

So... you want people who really are atheists to stop calling themselves "atheists" in order to accommodate the prejudices of theists?

No.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No.

Glad to hear it.

Did you change your mind, or do you not consider "anti-theists" to be real atheists?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Many times I’ve seen people saying “atheists” when they’re discussing people arguing and protesting against God beliefs. Many people who argue and protest against God beliefs are not atheists, and many atheists never argue or protest against God beliefs. I think that part of what helps perpetuate that misunderstanding is that sometimes people arguing and protesting against God beliefs call their own anti-theism “atheism,” and sometimes they call themselves and other people arguing and protesting against God beliefs “atheists.”

Agreed. I have long held the notion that there are basically two variations of those claiming to be atheist.
1. People who have considered the churches, religions, and even the concept of gods or a God, and have concluded with reasoning that gods or a God cannot be factual.
...or....
2. Theistic, often very religious individuals who are upset be teachings in their church/synagogue/mosque/etc, or of their religion. As well as those simply egregiously upset by some turn of events recently who denounce God, and declare themselves “atheist”. Basically atheist just to be spiteful of what they were raised to believe. A teen throwing a fit against his/her parents and community, if you will.

This latter group is very vocal, and sometimes short-lived in their anti-god stance. But some of them actually take time to reflect on their latest “rash” decision, go on to study more of the subject, and join with the quieter first group. ...then again, some just return to their religious folds.

 

[Jim]

My main point in the OP was that sometimes when the word “atheists” is used in the title or the OP of a thread, it is not actually about atheists. Sometimes it’s actually about people arguing and protesting against God beliefs. Some of them might be atheists, but that has nothing to do with them arguing and protesting against God beliefs.

Another, separate point I was making was that some of the people who help to perpetuate that misunderstanding are atheists.

 

[Jim]

Glad to hear it.

Did you change your mind, or do you not consider "anti-theists" to be real atheists?

Neither.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Many times I’ve seen people saying “atheists” when they’re discussing people arguing and protesting against God beliefs. Many people who argue and protest against God beliefs are not atheists, and many atheists never argue or protest against God beliefs. I think that part of what helps perpetuate that misunderstanding is that sometimes people arguing and protesting against God beliefs call their own anti-theism “atheism,” and sometimes they call themselves and other people arguing and protesting against God beliefs “atheists.”

It's been going on since before anti-theism or "new atheism" became a thing. To them, it is inconceivable how anyone could criticize god unless they don't believe in him, which is often not viewed as a rejection of belief persay as it is being angry with god. Movies such as "Gods not Dead" feature a Christian mindset that was alive and thriving even when I was a Christian, before that even - this group also tends to use the word atheist as a derogatory term and accusation.

 

[Jim]

It's been going on since before anti-theism or "new atheism" became a thing. To them, it is inconceivable how anyone could criticize god unless they don't believe in him, which is often not viewed as a rejection of belief persay as it is being angry with god. Movies such as "Gods not Dead" feature a Christian mindset that was alive and thriving even when I was a Christian, before that even - this group also tends to use the word atheist as a derogatory term and accusation.

Yes I know that sometimes when people vilify and disparage atheists, they actually are talking about atheists. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear in the OP.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes I know that sometimes when people vilify and disparage atheists, they actually are talking about atheists. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear in the OP.

It's more that it's been going on long before contemporary discourse. This is a group who is prone to believing theirs the only religion as the others are false, they dismiss apostates as not having had true faith, and even reject the idea there really truly can be an atheist, and how they will quickly and readily abandon their beliefs and religion at the first sign of trouble.
This is a group that doesn't always have realistic or healthy relations with the world outside of their heavily censored and thickly insulated Church. They have a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea of someone not believing, and when you add in how questioning and doubting god is taboo, and you get a bunch of terribly wrong beliefs about atheists. Like the absurd nonsense their lives can have no meaning and they are utterly cut off from and without morality.

 

[Jim]

It's more that it's been going on long before contemporary discourse.

You mean, people vilifying and disparaging atheists? Yes, I know.

 

[icehorse]

Opposition between people promoting and defending God beliefs, and people arguing and protesting against God beliefs, is sometimes labeled as opposition between theists and atheists. I think that grossly misrepresents God beliefs, people who believe in God, atheists, and atheism.

Many people who believe in God do not try to promote and defend their God beliefs. Some of them are even opposed to that. Many people arguing and protesting against some God beliefs are not atheists, and many atheists never argue or protest against God beliefs. Sometimes people who argue and protest against God beliefs happen to be atheists, but their atheism is not the reaso for their anti-theism.

I consider myself to be an anti-theist, and I participate in many religious debates on this forum. Speaking for myself, I don't care very much if people believe in a deity. What concerns me is how often "religion" is a source of problems. I think it's important to distinguish between a personal belief in a deity and the support of a religion.

 

[syo]

I am a theist. An atheist will ignore my theistic views. An antitheist will throw rocks against my theistic views. What's the deal with antitheists?

 

[Jim]

An atheist will ignore my theistic views.

Some will and some won’t. Some will throw rocks, but it won’t be because they are atheists.

 

[izzy88]

Many times I’ve seen people saying “atheists” when they’re discussing people arguing and protesting against God beliefs. Many people who argue and protest against God beliefs are not atheists, and many atheists never argue or protest against God beliefs. I think that part of what helps perpetuate that misunderstanding is that sometimes people arguing and protesting against God beliefs call their own anti-theism “atheism,” and sometimes they call themselves and other people arguing and protesting against God beliefs “atheists.”

(edited to add the following)
I know that sometimes when people vilify and disparage atheists, they actually are talking about atheists, and sometimes disputes between people promoting God beliefs and other people actually are about God beliefs. That is not what I’m discussing here.
(end edit)

The title a person gives oneself is not always accurate.

Obviously, these two terms have different definitions, but there are also plenty of atheists who are, indeed, anti-theists, whether they want to admit it or even realize it.

Do most religious fundamentalists refer to themselves as such? Or do we refer to them as such because they fit the definition regardless of what they want to call themselves?

 

[Jim]

To respond to some possible misunderstandings:
- I’m not thinking that people who call themselves atheists, and who argue and protest against God beliefs, are not really atheists.
- I’m not thinking that when people vilify and disparage atheists, it is never really about atheists.
- I’m not thinking that debates between people who are promoting God beliefs, and other people, are never really about God beliefs,

My main point in the OP was that sometimes when the word “atheists” is used in the title or the OP of a thread, it is not actually about atheists. Sometimes it’s actually about people arguing and protesting against God beliefs. Some of them might be atheists, but that has nothing to do with them arguing and protesting against God beliefs.

Another, separate point I was making was that some of the people who help to perpetuate that misunderstanding are atheists.

 

[oldbadger]

Many times I’ve seen people saying “atheists” when they’re discussing people arguing and protesting against God beliefs.

Atheism is not anti-theism. Anti-theism is not atheism.

I think that you have got that correct, Jim.
Why?
Well, the first use of the word 'atheist' was used against Christians by the Romans because Christians did not believe in Roman or Greek Gods. Christians were therefore 'atheists' in the opinions of Romans.

And then, atheists are not necessarily anti-theists in as much as they can acknowledge the God beliefs of other folks.

 

[Revoltingest]

Many times I’ve seen people saying “atheists” when they’re discussing people arguing and protesting against God beliefs. Many people who argue and protest against God beliefs are not atheists, and many atheists never argue or protest against God beliefs. I think that part of what helps perpetuate that misunderstanding is that sometimes people arguing and protesting against God beliefs call their own anti-theism “atheism,” and sometimes they call themselves and other people arguing and protesting against God beliefs “atheists.”

(edited to add the following)
I know that sometimes when people vilify and disparage atheists, they actually are talking about atheists, and sometimes disputes between people promoting God beliefs and other people actually are about God beliefs. That is not what I’m discussing here.
(end edit)

I wonder....
Would "anti-theism" be applicable to not only opposition to all
religions, but also to some theists opposing other religions?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You mean, people vilifying and disparaging atheists? Yes, I know.

And this includes their many false beliefs and ideas about atheists that lead to a world of fallacies they think it's true, such as your post mentioning they are quick to label anyone who criticizes their beliefs an atheist.

 

[Jim]

I wonder....
Would "anti-theism" be applicable to not only opposition to all
religions, but also to some theists opposing other religions?

Maybe.