Atheism=Nihlism=unTruth

[stvdv]

and the other used confirmation bias

I don't know if the other used confirmation bias (without asking him would that not be confirmation bias itself?)

 

[wandering peacefully]

Atheists are Nihilists, and if so, they are not true. Nihilism is defined by F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead." Nihilism is wrong because it denies the truth. And if this is so, then God has been proved quite scientifically. So?

So, that is really silly on all accounts. And certainly not the truth.

 

[1213]

...F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead."...

That is quite funny. If we believe truth does not exit, what Nietzsche is actually false.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Atheists are Nihilists, and if so, they are not true. Nihilism is defined by F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead." Nihilism is wrong because it denies the truth. And if this is so, then God has been proved quite scientifically. So?

Nevermind the fact Nietzsche warned of Nihilism and that frequently misunderstood quote is a part of this warning.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is quite funny. If we believe truth does not exit, what Nietzsche is actually false.

More of an issue of quoting the lines of a character to an author as if it may necessarily reflect the author's actual view.

 

[firedragon]

Ah, I found it. It says 18% of atheists believe in a "higher power." So @firedragon was in fact mistaken. From the Wikipedia article on the 12-Step program which uses the higher power language, "In current twelve-step program usage, a higher power can be anything at all that the member believes is adequate. Reported examples include their twelve-step group, nature, consciousness, existential freedom, God, science, and Buddha."

That's nice. 18% of atheists can go ahead and believe in higher powers like existential freedom, science, nature, etc. That actually still makes them atheists.

Can you see the differences in our approaches here? One used critical thinking, investigation, and questioning, and the other used confirmation bias.

You are referring to the Alcoholics Anonymous group, which is a "To surrender to the Higher Power involves no more exacting a demand than the surrender they have made to alcohol, perhaps over a drinking period of twenty years."

PEW finding is exploratory, and says specifically "higher power or spiritual force".

"Those who said “yes” – 80% of all respondents – received a follow-up question asking them to clarify whether they believe in “God as described in the Bible” or they “do not believe in God as described in the Bible, but do believe there is some other higher power or spiritual force in the universe.” Most people in this group – indeed, a slim majority of all Americans (56%) – say they believe in God as described in the Bible." - PEW

Read a little more.

 

[Father Heathen]

Quest for toast, instead. A more easily obtainable and tasty pursuit for you.

 

[Riders]

Atheists are Nihilists, and if so, they are not true. Nihilism is defined by F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead." Nihilism is wrong because it denies the truth. And if this is so, then God has been proved quite scientifically. So?

Saying Nhilisms thoughts prove God to be scientifically true because it's stupid is absurd. There is no proof there except that Nihilism is ridiculous.

 

[Riders]

You are referring to the Alcoholics Anonymous group, which is a "To surrender to the Higher Power involves no more exacting a demand than the surrender they have made to alcohol, perhaps over a drinking period of twenty years."

PEW finding is exploratory, and says specifically "higher power or spiritual force".

"Those who said “yes” – 80% of all respondents – received a follow-up question asking them to clarify whether they believe in “God as described in the Bible” or they “do not believe in God as described in the Bible, but do believe there is some other higher power or spiritual force in the universe.” Most people in this group – indeed, a slim majority of all Americans (56%) – say they believe in God as described in the Bible." - PEW

Read a little more.

They don't believe in God just something higher than they are. QUite often they claim the AA group as higher power.

 

[AlexanderG]

You are referring to the Alcoholics Anonymous group, which is a "To surrender to the Higher Power involves no more exacting a demand than the surrender they have made to alcohol, perhaps over a drinking period of twenty years."

PEW finding is exploratory, and says specifically "higher power or spiritual force".

"Those who said “yes” – 80% of all respondents – received a follow-up question asking them to clarify whether they believe in “God as described in the Bible” or they “do not believe in God as described in the Bible, but do believe there is some other higher power or spiritual force in the universe.” Most people in this group – indeed, a slim majority of all Americans (56%) – say they believe in God as described in the Bible." - PEW

Read a little more.

No. Please admit you were wrong. You said "research" showed that "18% of atheists are actually theists." That was wrong.

According to the survey, 18% of atheists say they believe in a higher power which can be anything, like nature, science, karma, freedom, etc. Not gods. Not theism. Theses atheists are therefore not theists. You were wrong, so please stop making this claim in the future. Right?

 

[firedragon]

No. Please admit you were wrong. You said "research" showed that "18% of atheists are actually theists." That was wrong.

No. First, you cherry picked from my statement. I said "theists of some sort".
Second, you are so wrong.

According to the survey, 18% of atheists say they believe in a higher power which can be anything, like nature, science, karma, freedom, etc. Not gods.

No. Read again. I even cut and pasted. You are using a methodological inference of the Alcoholics Anonymous who used religiosity to something as a mechanism for rehabilitation to confuse the PEW research. Strangely, you also missed "Spiritual Force" from that equation. Second time you had dropped a word in the cause of brevity.

Alcoholics Anonymous uses this "Higher Power" as a strategy, and they tell their atheists to focus on something in order to "follow their path" to recovery. I think you should be able to google the Alcoholics Anonymous "Big Book" and read "Chapter 5". Then you will understand.

The sample PEW has chosen is a random sample and the research methodology is exploratory. Also, the usage of words is "Higher power or Spiritual Force". This is not a methodological theism, it is a belief in something that prayers can be directed to.

Dont worry AG. I am used to seeing atheists get very highly agitated when statistics are quoted, but are not so agitated when the same research is quoted to show that Catholics and Jews have reported to call themselves with those names but still not believe in God. So this is an old story, and the research has been done thoroughly because this missionary reaction is expected from a few. Of course, a quick googling, and finding the wikipedia page of the methodology of Alcoholics Anonymous, and trying to make that general to all Americans without knowing the proper research is quite common.

18% of Atheists in the U.S have said that they believe in a higher power. They are very familiar with the God of the Bible, but they reject it vehemently. But they believe in a higher power or a spiritual force. Americans' beliefs about the nature of God

 

[firedragon]

They don't believe in God just something higher than they are. QUite often they claim the AA group as higher power.

Yes. I have read their book thoroughly.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Atheists are Nihilists, and if so, they are not true. Nihilism is defined by F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead." Nihilism is wrong because it denies the truth. And if this is so, then God has been proved quite scientifically. So?

Did you have a stroke while typing this?

Hi. Self proclaimed nihilist here. Truth as a higher construct is meaningless. Care to discuss?

 

[AlexanderG]

No. First, you cherry picked from my statement. I said "theists of some sort".

Ok. You just seem like a dishonest interlocutor to me, at this point. When people say they don't believe in any god, and believe in a higher power (where many definitions of higher power include natural things, concepts, or spiritual things that are not gods), then they are not theists. They are not theists "of some sort" either.

You also go on to sarcastically explain that I'm agitated but it's ok and you're used to it from atheists. Please spare me your gaslighting. I'm simply disappointed and intrigued. If you can't acknowledge when you've been clearly corrected, then why are you even here talking with people? You're making Islam look bad, too, which I doubt is your goal. I know that many Christian and Muslim apologists are on record stating that it is acceptable to lie if it promotes religious belief, but I hope you're not one of them? Please do better.

Unrelated surveys about the beliefs of all people, or the non-beliefs of cultural Catholics and Jews are entirely irrelevant to the point. This does not distract from your inability to acknowledge you were wrong.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheists are Nihilists, and if so, they are not true. Nihilism is defined by F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead." Nihilism is wrong because it denies the truth. And if this is so, then God has been proved quite scientifically. So?

You're not the first to mangle Nietzsche through literal interpretation but...you're mangling Nietzsche through literal interpretation.
Also, I'm an atheist, but not a nihilist.
Also, I have no idea what 'not true' means in relation to nihilism.
Also, even if nihilism is 'wrong', it speaks not at all to the existence of God, but only (perhaps) the utility of belief.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Huh? Citation please. How are you even defining theist and atheist? Are there people who believe gods exist but who also identify as atheists? I would find this very odd.

I interpreted it as the variance between claimed position and actual position.
Think of it the other way...do you know any who claim to be theists, but you suspect don't actually believe in God? It's common enough for a variety of reasons.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That is quite funny. If we believe truth does not exit, what Nietzsche is actually false.

First you'd have to believe Nietzsche actually said what is claimed in the OP, and understand the context of it. I wouldn't take it on face value. It's not accurate.

 

[firedragon]

Ok. You just seem like a dishonest interlocutor to me

Well, that type of rhetoric is expected mate. Do a little more reading.

When people say they don't believe in any god, and believe in a higher power (where many definitions of higher power include natural things, concepts, or spiritual things that are not gods), then they are not theists. They are not theists "of some sort" either.

Theos means divinity. Ho theos is "The God", but with out the article, it means just divinity which is anything out of the realm of naturism. Theism in principle is not necessarily worshiping the so called "Abrahamic God" which is the typical minute understand that people have. There are people who worship the universe as in they believe that their prayers could be directed towards it. Thats the definition of a higher power or spiritual force.

By definition an atheist cannot be a theist. It's an oxymoron. But the fact remains that being a theist or atheist is also a protocol. It's an identity statement. This has been very much a known fact in sociology.

Unrelated surveys about the beliefs of all people, or the non-beliefs of cultural Catholics and Jews are entirely irrelevant to the point.

That was for you to understand the span of the research and facts presented. Its to say that even religious people or those who identify with a religion on paper, when questioned, admit that they dont believe in a God. So its just an identity. So by definition they cannot be theists, but they identify as theists.

You're making Islam look bad, too, which I doubt is your goal. I know that many Christian and Muslim apologists are on record stating that it is acceptable to lie if it promotes religious belief, but I hope you're not one of them? Please do better.

Well, this is of course an ad hominem attempt because you simply dont like a simple statement. Also, you are too ignorant in theology since you made claims like this maybe from internet memes and opposing apologetics. So if you want to address these kind of things which will come across as an ad hominem logical fallacy or/and a red herring, why not open a new thread on the topic of lying to propagate religion instead?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In what way Nietzsche is important? He said what he wanted and now is dead. Was he a messenger of Allah that we should give importance to what he wrote?

That's fine. I don't think this truth, that being the existent universe, provides a foundation for morality.
Or maybe it does in the sense that the choices we made were the choices we had to make.

Morality is a creation of society, it has nothing to do with the truth of existence.
You are right, free will is only that much.

.. there is no objective value to human life.

True, there is no 'objective value' to human life or the life of any animal or living being. They are appearances, flash and subside, much like a wave or a bubble in water.

 

[ajay0]

Atheists are Nihilists, and if so, they are not true. Nihilism is defined by F. Nietzsche as the phrase "Truth does not exist, because God is dead." Nihilism is wrong because it denies the truth. And if this is so, then God has been proved quite scientifically. So?

Atheists need not be nihilists. They can reject God but that does not mean they should reject values and virtues seeing their practicality in real life. Nietzche was not well-versed in eastern philosophy and this ignorance prevented him from having a comprehensive philosophical understanding of truth and reality.

As per the Dharmic religious philosophy, virtuous conduct and behavior is in itself potent enough to attain enlightenment, even if the said person is an atheist or agnostic or nonbeliever.

I had created a thread of the female enlightened master Rajini Menon who had attained enlightenment just by adherence to virtuous conduct and behavior...

Female enlightened master Rajini Menon on attaining enlightenment by adhering to virtuous conduct...