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Atheism: The Great Nothing!

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
I guess I never knew searching for the truth was nothing. I always see Atheism as a beginning, when religion and churches and other organizations give you answers or stories that make you ask more and become more confused. You question, everything......

It's as if you eyes are wide open, and you say hey that doesn't make any sense. then you ask around and others tell you you're wrong, and you're going to hell. Simply for asking the truth. Atheism is not about bringing something to nothing, it's about bringing the nothing that is religion and finding out the truth and freeing our minds.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Thanks for the metaphysics perspective, Meow Mix. I'm no physicist (i.e. I'm a professional linguist), so it is great to get your take on the subject of metaphysics. I especially enjoy your comments on Einstein's views. I do not feel a lot of sympathy for the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum phenomena, which some have characterized as "good physics, bad philosophy". Anyway, I'm nothing more than a dilettante when it comes to either physics or philosophy. So I appreciate your views on these matters.

I used to read about quantum physics. I think the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum phenomena served well to demonstrated how our logic does not apply as it does within classical physics. I think some people read too much into the thought experiments regarding particle physics, they were designed to deal with specific problems.

Actually, the Copenhagen Interpretation is very responsible metaphysics. There are two issues here:

First, there is a mass public misconception about the Copenhagen Interpretation because many New Age and some popular media without much physics background have incorrectly defined exactly what the Copenhagen Interpretation is.

On one hand you have people who think the Copenhagen Interpretation is "consciousness causes collapse," which couldn't be more wrong (CI was developed in response to that metaphysical garbage).

On the other hand when popular science books and media attempt to explain quantum mechanics and the Copenhagen Interpretation they make the mistake of suggesting that everyday logic does break down on the quantum level. That isn't true: identity, noncontradiction and excluded middle are very much intact on the quantum level.

The problem comes from treating the wave-function is if it's real; and consequently treating light as if it's particles, waves, or a superposition of particles and waves.

Bell's Inequality showed that since there are no hidden variables in quantum mechanics in principle -- the weirdness doesn't come from our instruments not being sensitive enough -- that quantum mechanics as it was then formulated required that scientists abandon either locality (thus allowing what Einstein called "spukhafte fernwirkung" or "spooky action at a distance;" e.g. the EPR paradox) or realism (thus allowing violations of Aristotlian-esque logic like identity; e.g. quantum superposition of states and Schroedinger's Cat).

The truth is that the most metaphysically viable explanation for quantum particles is that they are not particles and they aren't waves; they are something consistent which just happen to behave like particles and waves. Thus a third solution to Bell's Inequality was born: rather than abandoning metaphysical realism (i.e., instead of abandoning Aristotlian logic, a self-refuting concept) we can briefly -- until our knowledge expands -- abandon scientific realism (i.e., the notion that the mechanisms in science are describing something that actually exists rather than just providing correct answers).

The Copenhagen Interpretation abandons scientific realism: it is the interpretation that the wave-function doesn't exist; it's just a thought-tool that we use to arrive at correct answers.

This is similar to Feynman's many-paths integral from quantum electrodynamics: Feynman showed that if you integrate all paths a particle can possibly take as if it's taking all of them at once -- and literally he means ALL paths, even ones that go to Mars and back -- it happens to produce correct answers that match experiment at an unprecedented predictive power of seven decimal places. But are particles really taking all paths? Of course not; it's just a thought tool that gives correct answers.

Likewise with Schroedinger's Cat: it's useful to think of the cat as in a superposition of dead-alive but in reality it is either dead or alive. It's just a neat way to do calculations without understanding yet what's really happening. As Bohr eloquently said, "Shut up and calculate."

Now interestingly enough, even scientific realism is beginning to return to quantum physics with Roland Omnes and the concept of quantum decoherence, which explains why there is an appearance of a wave-function even if a wave-function doesn't ontologically exist. So, we're making steps in the right direction!
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
I guess I never knew searching for the truth was nothing. I always see Atheism as a beginning, when religion and churches and other organizations give you answers or stories that make you ask more and become more confused. You question, everything......

It's as if you eyes are wide open, and you say hey that doesn't make any sense. then you ask around and others tell you you're wrong, and you're going to hell. Simply for asking the truth. Atheism is not about bringing something to nothing, it's about bringing the nothing that is religion and finding out the truth and freeing our minds.


Neither Atheism or religion hold the answers, and both have too much pride to know that.

Both amount to nothing.

Peace.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Atheism is often quite deprived of pride, in fact.

Truth be told, the same can be said of religion.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Neither Atheism or religion hold the answers, and both have too much pride to know that.

Both amount to nothing.

Peace.
There is no such thing as atheism, it merely means to be without theism. When you make statements such as atheism amounting to nothing, I totally agree with you, it's a non entity predicated on there being theists. If there were no theists running around claiming invisible gods are out there and they are real, there would be no such thing as atheists doubting them.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Actually, the Copenhagen Interpretation is very responsible metaphysics. There are two issues here:

First, there is a mass public misconception about the Copenhagen Interpretation because many New Age and some popular media without much physics background have incorrectly defined exactly what the Copenhagen Interpretation is.

On one hand you have people who think the Copenhagen Interpretation is "consciousness causes collapse," which couldn't be more wrong (CI was developed in response to that metaphysical garbage).

On the other hand when popular science books and media attempt to explain quantum mechanics and the Copenhagen Interpretation they make the mistake of suggesting that everyday logic does break down on the quantum level. That isn't true: identity, noncontradiction and excluded middle are very much intact on the quantum level.

The problem comes from treating the wave-function is if it's real; and consequently treating light as if it's particles, waves, or a superposition of particles and waves.

Bell's Inequality showed that since there are no hidden variables in quantum mechanics in principle -- the weirdness doesn't come from our instruments not being sensitive enough -- that quantum mechanics as it was then formulated required that scientists abandon either locality (thus allowing what Einstein called "spukhafte fernwirkung" or "spooky action at a distance;" e.g. the EPR paradox) or realism (thus allowing violations of Aristotlian-esque logic like identity; e.g. quantum superposition of states and Schroedinger's Cat).

The truth is that the most metaphysically viable explanation for quantum particles is that they are not particles and they aren't waves; they are something consistent which just happen to behave like particles and waves. Thus a third solution to Bell's Inequality was born: rather than abandoning metaphysical realism (i.e., instead of abandoning Aristotlian logic, a self-refuting concept) we can briefly -- until our knowledge expands -- abandon scientific realism (i.e., the notion that the mechanisms in science are describing something that actually exists rather than just providing correct answers).

The Copenhagen Interpretation abandons scientific realism: it is the interpretation that the wave-function doesn't exist; it's just a thought-tool that we use to arrive at correct answers.

This is similar to Feynman's many-paths integral from quantum electrodynamics: Feynman showed that if you integrate all paths a particle can possibly take as if it's taking all of them at once -- and literally he means ALL paths, even ones that go to Mars and back -- it happens to produce correct answers that match experiment at an unprecedented predictive power of seven decimal places. But are particles really taking all paths? Of course not; it's just a thought tool that gives correct answers.

Likewise with Schroedinger's Cat: it's useful to think of the cat as in a superposition of dead-alive but in reality it is either dead or alive. It's just a neat way to do calculations without understanding yet what's really happening. As Bohr eloquently said, "Shut up and calculate."

Now interestingly enough, even scientific realism is beginning to return to quantum physics with Roland Omnes and the concept of quantum decoherence, which explains why there is an appearance of a wave-function even if a wave-function doesn't ontologically exist. So, we're making steps in the right direction!

I just sent an application to join your fan-club. :D
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as atheism, it merely means to be without theism. When you make statements such as atheism amounting to nothing, I totally agree with you, it's a non entity predicated on there being theists. If there were no theists running around claiming invisible gods are out there and they are real, there would be no such thing as atheists doubting them.


Well you have a point, Atheism is nothing without Theism, and they know it. They are nothing without Theism;

And really just nothing!

Peace.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Well you have a point, Atheism is nothing without Theism, and they know it. They are nothing without Theism;

And really just nothing!

Peace.
Indeed, and you spend a lot of time complaining about nothing and making a big deal of nothing. You are obsessed with something, but is it really nothing? It seems that you are obsessed with the nothing that is atheism, and that is really something.
 

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
Well you have a point, Atheism is nothing without Theism, and they know it. They are nothing without Theism;

And really just nothing!

Peace.
And what do you have? A book, some fairy tales, some faith with no proof? Com' on it is you that has nothing, we are simply trying to show you that truth.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Atheism is the great nothing, its innards are nothing from nothing leaves nothing. We came from nothing and will return to the nothing. Atheist are servants of the nothing.

And between their creative ears, theres nothing there.

Peace.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Ugh I don't get why people pay attention to a certain someone that never has anything meaningful to say... it just clogs my screen up with inanity. Ignore is where it's at. Some people are too incoherent to deal with.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Meow Mix, how do you define metaphysics? I've always been suspicious of it.

Rudolf Carnap, in his book Philosophy and Logical Syntax, used the concept of verifiability to reject metaphysics.
Metaphysicians cannot avoid making their statements nonverifiable, because if they made them verifiable, the decision about the truth or falsehood of their doctrines would depend upon experience and therefore belong to the region of empirical science. This consequence they wish to avoid, because they pretend to teach knowledge which is of a higher level than that of empirical science. Thus they are compelled to cut all connection between their statements and experience; and precisely by this procedure they deprive them of any sense.
— Rudolf Carnap
Maybe your definition and Rudolf Carnap's are two different things.
 
Ugh I don't get why people pay attention to a certain someone that never has anything meaningful to say... it just clogs my screen up with inanity. Ignore is where it's at. Some people are too incoherent to deal with.


the ignore button is a slippery-slope. :p
once you ignore the one you feel inclined to ignore those who respond to hir.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Atheism is the great nothing, its innards are nothing from nothing leaves nothing. We came from nothing and will return to the nothing. Atheist are servants of the nothing.

And between their creative ears, theres nothing there.

Peace.


I will say this though, I was watching a news poll two days ago, it was questions about religion , being given to church goers and to Atheist. The Atheist scored higher in the answers than did the church members in all religions. I give Atheist honor for that, they actually knew more about the answers than did the religious people.

And that says something to me. Although I am not a church person, it seems church people, on the average, don't even study their own religion;

Yet Atheist do. And this is from the most recent data availible.

Crudos to Atheist for that.

Peace.
 

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
Atheism is the great nothing, its innards are nothing from nothing leaves nothing. We came from nothing and will return to the nothing. Atheist are servants of the nothing.

And between their creative ears, theres nothing there.

Peace.
Yet you hinder to answer my question. If Atheists have nothing, what do you have?

The imagination between an Atheist ears is far more powerful that any gospel or false prophet. For without the people who question gods true existence, you would be in the stone age.....:p
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Yet you hinder to answer my question. If Atheists have nothing, what do you have?

The imagination between an Atheist ears is far more powerful that any gospel or false prophet. For without the people who question gods true existence, you would be in the stone age.....:p


I have an insight that sees both the nothing and the something, nothing limited.

Peace.
 

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
I have an insight that sees both the nothing and the something, nothing limited.

Peace.
So where did you get the idea that Atheist's think we are created from nothing?

As an Atheist I know this not to be true, there has to be something to create something. We know this, what we question is a creator pulling strings to make the universe and the galaxies and the planets and us. Atheist are simply looking for a logical and fullfilling answer of who we are, where we came from and where are we going. The fact that your ideas of god and creation are being debunked in the process is a simple bonus....:D
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Ugh I don't get why people pay attention to a certain someone that never has anything meaningful to say... it just clogs my screen up with inanity. Ignore is where it's at. Some people are too incoherent to deal with.

Because people interest me.

Atheists interest me, because they think the same way i do.

Theists interest me because they don't think the same way i do.

Mickiel interests me because he doesn't think at all but still manages to post coherent sentences (well most of the time anyway).

And i want to get into that.

-Q
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Meow Mix, how do you define metaphysics? I've always been suspicious of it.

Rudolf Carnap, in his book Philosophy and Logical Syntax, used the concept of verifiability to reject metaphysics.
Metaphysicians cannot avoid making their statements nonverifiable, because if they made them verifiable, the decision about the truth or falsehood of their doctrines would depend upon experience and therefore belong to the region of empirical science. This consequence they wish to avoid, because they pretend to teach knowledge which is of a higher level than that of empirical science. Thus they are compelled to cut all connection between their statements and experience; and precisely by this procedure they deprive them of any sense.
— Rudolf Carnap

Maybe your definition and Rudolf Carnap's are two different things.

Metaphysics is just a blanket term for ontology and epistemology; both of which science relies heavily on. I'm not sure what Carnap didn't like about metaphysics but his statement itself is an epistemic one -- i.e., metaphysics :p
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Because people interest me.

Atheists interest me, because they think the same way i do.

Theists interest me because they don't think the same way i do.

Mickiel interests me because he doesn't think at all but still manages to post coherent sentences (well most of the time anyway).

And i want to get into that.

-Q


Well sometimes you intrest me too Q.

We have had our runs around the mountian.

But the mountian is bigger than us both.

Peace.
 
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