Atheism vs Theism and Rationality vs Creativity

[Erebus]

In my experience many on the LHP tend to somewhat blur the lines between theism and atheism in a great number of ways. This ranges from autotheism and the appreciation for the power of symbols through to explaining deities as both internal and external beings simultaneously. There are countless ways to blur the lines, but what I'm interested in here are people's thoughts on the pro's and cons of atheism and theism on their own in a LHP context.
Note that I'm not asking for people's opinions on atheists or theists themselves, instead I'm looking at (to provide an example) the benefits and negatives of believing in *insert Devil of choice here* as being a literal or figurative entity.

To provide a little background behind why I'm asking this, I haven't performed rituals for some time as I've been quite rundown with university work and not in the right frame of mind. At the same time I have explained the psychological benefits of suspension of disbelief and placebo to people in and out of RF as it was the easiest element for them to get their heads around.
This has resulted in me having quite a rational, metaphoric view of my gods for some time. The positives of this are that it's an easy position to defend and is much safer for me while I'm in the wrong frame of mind to use ritual and magic. The downside is that I feel stagnant and bored. To me rationality is restrictive but safe, unnatural yet acceptable and I feel I now need to reawaken my wilder, irrational side and bring the gods back to life.

The situation I have found myself in sparked my interest in how others view the pros and cons of this dichotomy and whether they lean more to one side than the other or try to maintain a balance.

 

[jasonwill2]

for me, if you believe in gods (they are more like quasi-conscious forces than anything), then you are more likely to believe that your magical working will be successful, and so it will... as your belief makes the emotion stronger.

Also it opens the doors to more possibilities and explanations then just materialism.

 

[Orias]

Note that I'm not asking for people's opinions on atheists or theists themselves, instead I'm looking at (to provide an example) the benefits and negatives of believing in *insert Devil of choice here* as being a literal or figurative entity.

Heheh.

The benefits are this, that which is satisfying to you.

Now there is also this, people "believing" in something because it is satisfying for those close to them to think they "believe" in the same thing.

To provide a little background behind why I'm asking this, I haven't performed rituals for some time as I've been quite rundown with university work and not in the right frame of mind. At the same time I have explained the psychological benefits of suspension of disbelief and placebo to people in and out of RF as it was the easiest element for them to get their heads around.

You might have to clarify a little more for me here.

This has resulted in me having quite a rational, metaphoric view of my gods for some time. The positives of this are that it's an easy position to defend and is much safer for me while I'm in the wrong frame of mind to use ritual and magic. The downside is that I feel stagnant and bored. To me rationality is restrictive but safe, unnatural yet acceptable and I feel I now need to reawaken my wilder, irrational side and bring the gods back to life.

I think I know what you mean, try breaking things down less. Or maybe, try dismissing them as having any possession of you.

Its not really reawakening your wild "side", but what you see as your wild side. Why is it wild?

You used "unnatural", a word I haven't used to describe anything, even that which I have not been able to word out myself.

They are like cooperating gears, they turn opposite ways but turn each other.

Believe me though, I have yet to be informed of the true intent of either side that doesn't involve my input, which I assume is just as hogwashish as anyone elses.

The situation I have found myself in sparked my interest in how others view the pros and cons of this dichotomy and whether they lean more to one side than the other or try to maintain a balance.

Well there you go

Whether or not one strives to maintain balance, they have yet to figure out what balance really is.

All you have to do is look at the clock.

 

[1137]

There is a difference between existence and non-existence?!

 

[Orias]

Or is there?

 

[bigbadgirl]

Us poor Pantheist caught in the middle!

 

[Orias]

I wouldn't just seclude it to pantheists, but I can agree on this particular matter

 

[Child of Stardust]

I haven't performed rituals for some time as I've been quite rundown with university work and not in the right frame of mind. At the same time I have explained the psychological benefits of suspension of disbelief and placebo to people in and out of RF as it was the easiest element for them to get their heads around.
This has resulted in me having quite a rational, metaphoric view of my gods for some time. The positives of this are that it's an easy position to defend and is much safer for me while I'm in the wrong frame of mind to use ritual and magic. The downside is that I feel stagnant and bored. To me rationality is restrictive but safe, unnatural yet acceptable and I feel I now need to reawaken my wilder, irrational side and bring the gods back to life.

The situation I have found myself in sparked my interest in how others view the pros and cons of this dichotomy and whether they lean more to one side than the other or try to maintain a balance.

Though I am not Left Hand Path, I understand this dichotomy; it epitomizes my own spiritual jounrney. I'm drawn to rituals, mythologies, spirtual experiences, etc., but am also a pretty rational person. I'm too rational to believe in the literal existenec of god(s) deep down, though on the surface I kind of pseudo do. It's this weird, illogical but quite doable way of suspending thoughts in my head to get the most out of my experiences. I know that great spirits exist, but I know they don't exist. They exist to me...I feel them, so while I am "in the spell" it becomes real to me...I feel the experiences I know technically that this is an "illusion", but it is significant enough to my life for me not to cast them aside, therfore they are real to me, if only in my mind. You might say I don't believe in external spirits, or external gods, but I believe in internal ones that visit me out of the void.

I know this sounds like some corny Velveteen Rabbit thing, but it's true - in many ways imagining things in many ways makes them real. We are a part of the universe, are we not? When we imagine things, we bring them into reality. They're just not real outside your minds...but everything we experience is through our minds anyway. So in many ways they are more real to us than the outside world is. But we can't forget the reality of the external world either, which affects us. So I think your approach is actually a very sophisticated and healthy approach to spirituality. It ensures you don't go too far with it and make negative life decicions based on something that technically doesn't exist. But my theory is the very best way to do it is a kind of method acting, where you're so into it you believe it's real when the ritual/religious experience is going on, but on some deep level you know it's not. Since you seem to be talking about this as a choice you can make on a whim, it's likely that you take this approach already, which I think is a very positive sign.

 

[blackout]

Though I am not Left Hand Path, I understand this dichotomy; it epitomizes my own spiritual jounrney. I'm drawn to rituals, mythologies, spirtual experiences, etc., but am also a pretty rational person. I'm too rational to believe in the literal existenec of god(s) deep down, though on the surface I kind of pseudo do. It's this weird, illogical but quite doable way of suspending thoughts in my head to get the most out of my experiences. I know that great spirits exist, but I know they don't exist. They exist to me...I feel them, so while I am "in the spell" it becomes real to me...I feel the experiences I know technically that this is an "illusion", but it is significant enough to my life for me not to cast them aside, therfore they are real to me, if only in my mind. You might say I don't believe in external spirits, or external gods, but I believe in internal ones that visit me out of the void.

I know this sounds like some corny Velveteen Rabbit thing, but it's true - in many ways imagining things in many ways makes them real. We are a part of the universe, are we not? When we imagine things, we bring them into reality. They're just not real outside your minds...but everything we experience is through our minds anyway. So in many ways they are more real to us than the outside world is. But we can't forget the reality of the external world either, which affects us. So I think your approach is actually a very sophisticated and healthy approach to spirituality. It ensures you don't go too far with it and make negative life decicions based on something that technically doesn't exist. But my theory is the very best way to do it is a kind of method acting, where you're so into it you believe it's real when the ritual/religious experience is going on, but on some deep level you know it's not. Since you seem to be talking about this as a choice you can make on a whim, it's likely that you take this approach already, which I think is a very positive sign.

Expressed so very well! I concur Child of Stardust!

That said,
Like Shyanekh, I've been very much in external mode recently.
Some of it due to life's necessities,
some of it just because it's the best approach to certain of my goals presently,
given where 'I'm At' right now.
My mind Set, my internal Vision, and my health
all being in a good place currently
for getting the 'outer' work done.

As a result, I am not as well connected with my inner realm ATM,
though I do know it's always there for me,
when the time is right for me to 'enter in'.
It can feel like a very distant memory though
when you're not 'in it' for a while.

 

[Mindmaster]

I understand your dilemma, but why does a true spiritual journey have to preclude your rationality? It seems you are falling into the trap of considering your rationale and subconscious minds as different parts. You exist on all planes simultaneously regardless of your ability to perceive that fact. The true spiritual path is the one that allows you to express your rationale fully because it is not at odds with any part of your humanity.

Your mind is more sorted to dealing with things in four dimensions, but your subconscious is better at the other stuff. That being said, the more subtle layers of your consciousness are connected all the way to the spiritual source. I call that source Satan, the force that put you here to experience itself and gave you the gift of an individuality to experience. When it comes down to it doesn't really matter what you do... you can escape that power as well as you can currently violate the law of gravity. It can be bent a little bit, but it's there regardless of what you think or or believe. Does it exist as a human like intelligence? Yes, in a way.. and so much more... Imagine a small spark of you is placed into every one of your children... each of them is OF you.. completely and literally, but each is given autonomy of experience... Satan as a creature is a nebulous beast for sure in any sense of the word for that spark is the spark of the creator. We all have it.. we can ignore it.. or enrich it and grow our connection and open the line of communication.

You currently seem to have to suspend belief to "work" and it's this self-deception that is eating at your soul literally... Your subconscious innately knows the truth of the matter regardless of what you think because it maintains connection to the source -- it knows what you are dealing with is real and is calling baloney on your mind. You either get to terms with this fast or lose your freaking mind and end up in a loony bin... Your personality cannot fragment completely and have good things come of it. The stress in your everyday life is only exacerbating the situation now. Stop magic... renew the connection with meditation... You need to ground yourself and bridge yourself back to your source so you will not crumble.

You're not the first person I've known to go through this challenge, and thankfully most recover but you will have to focus now. Find your center and everything will be fine...

 

[blackout]

Are we all reading the same OP?

 

[Mindmaster]

Are we all reading the same OP?

Nope.. there are at least three ways to address that post... so I picked a winner.. haha

 

[blackout]

Nope.. there are at least three ways to address that post... so I picked a winner.. haha

yeah. I figured we weren't all reading the same OP.

 

[jasonwill2]

Us poor Pantheist caught in the middle!

I know!

I wouldn't just seclude it to pantheists, but I can agree on this particular matter

As I said before, it get's me torn too, atheism vs theism.

Though I am not Left Hand Path, I understand this dichotomy; it epitomizes my own spiritual jounrney. I'm drawn to rituals, mythologies, spirtual experiences, etc., but am also a pretty rational person. I'm too rational to believe in the literal existenec of god(s) deep down, though on the surface I kind of pseudo do. It's this weird, illogical but quite doable way of suspending thoughts in my head to get the most out of my experiences. I know that great spirits exist, but I know they don't exist. They exist to me...I feel them, so while I am "in the spell" it becomes real to me...I feel the experiences I know technically that this is an "illusion", but it is significant enough to my life for me not to cast them aside, therfore they are real to me, if only in my mind. You might say I don't believe in external spirits, or external gods, but I believe in internal ones that visit me out of the void.

I know this sounds like some corny Velveteen Rabbit thing, but it's true - in many ways imagining things in many ways makes them real. We are a part of the universe, are we not? When we imagine things, we bring them into reality. They're just not real outside your minds...but everything we experience is through our minds anyway. So in many ways they are more real to us than the outside world is. But we can't forget the reality of the external world either, which affects us. So I think your approach is actually a very sophisticated and healthy approach to spirituality. It ensures you don't go too far with it and make negative life decicions based on something that technically doesn't exist. But my theory is the very best way to do it is a kind of method acting, where you're so into it you believe it's real when the ritual/religious experience is going on, but on some deep level you know it's not. Since you seem to be talking about this as a choice you can make on a whim, it's likely that you take this approach already, which I think is a very positive sign.

Hmmm... not sure. Sounded good and like what I do, but after reading mindmaster's post below here, I realized that this might be better for short-term, at least for me...

I understand your dilemma, but why does a true spiritual journey have to preclude your rationality? It seems you are falling into the trap of considering your rationale and subconscious minds as different parts. You exist on all planes simultaneously regardless of your ability to perceive that fact. The true spiritual path is the one that allows you to express your rationale fully because it is not at odds with any part of your humanity.

Your mind is more sorted to dealing with things in four dimensions, but your subconscious is better at the other stuff. That being said, the more subtle layers of your consciousness are connected all the way to the spiritual source. I call that source Satan, the force that put you here to experience itself and gave you the gift of an individuality to experience. When it comes down to it doesn't really matter what you do... you can escape that power as well as you can currently violate the law of gravity. It can be bent a little bit, but it's there regardless of what you think or or believe. Does it exist as a human like intelligence? Yes, in a way.. and so much more... Imagine a small spark of you is placed into every one of your children... each of them is OF you.. completely and literally, but each is given autonomy of experience... Satan as a creature is a nebulous beast for sure in any sense of the word for that spark is the spark of the creator. We all have it.. we can ignore it.. or enrich it and grow our connection and open the line of communication.

You currently seem to have to suspend belief to "work" and it's this self-deception that is eating at your soul literally... Your subconscious innately knows the truth of the matter regardless of what you think because it maintains connection to the source -- it knows what you are dealing with is real and is calling baloney on your mind. You either get to terms with this fast or lose your freaking mind and end up in a loony bin... Your personality cannot fragment completely and have good things come of it. The stress in your everyday life is only exacerbating the situation now. Stop magic... renew the connection with meditation... You need to ground yourself and bridge yourself back to your source so you will not crumble.

You're not the first person I've known to go through this challenge, and thankfully most recover but you will have to focus now. Find your center and everything will be fine...

and this is better for long-term! Though the one major thing I disagree with is that it is "eating at his soul", maybe a bit' of an extreme way of saying it.

Are we all reading the same OP?

Nope.. there are at least three ways to address that post... so I picked a winner.. haha

yeah. I figured we weren't all reading the same OP.

???????/ You two are confusing me, You guys mean that everyone took it completely differently. I can say that it is a really complex and multi-dimensional question... there are more than one layer of abstract concepts and literal things tangled into a really fancy shape, so to speak.

 

[Orias]

I tend to think of atheism as being a form of theism, simply because they both involve "theism" and they both involve "God".

But then again my views can be similar to some atheists, inside we are all Satanists (comparable to babies are atheist at birth), and really we are all close to touching autotheism (atheism leans a little further into it I believe) simply because all forms of thought and belief are tangible to what we convene as being "higher up" on what is more important.

I see no difference between atheism and theism, what I struggle to understand is how attitudes are developed after people are comfortable with taking a label unto themselves and how this attitude completes a belief/set of beliefs.

 

[Mindmaster]

I tend to think of atheism as being a form of theism, simply because they both involve "theism" and they both involve "God".

But then again my views can be similar to some atheists, inside we are all Satanists (comparable to babies are atheist at birth), and really we are all close to touching autotheism (atheism leans a little further into it I believe) simply because all forms of thought and belief are tangible to what we convene as being "higher up" on what is more important.

I see no difference between atheism and theism, what I struggle to understand is how attitudes are developed after people are comfortable with taking a label unto themselves and how this attitude completes a belief/set of beliefs.

Don't mistake a few agreements on principles as something more than it is. =) Atheists do not believe in spiritual experiences period -- if they do they're called agnostics! Therein is where the differences lie -- I am aware of my multi-planar existence and the connection to Satan proper. I can achieve real trance and experience such things directly unlike these atheists with no intermediary required. I work to develop my faculties so that I can expand my understanding more using what I guess normal folks would call psychic powers but I feel are just normal unused abilities any ordinary person has. In all this.. I believe NOTHING... My ideas are based on exploration... I know of the afterlife directly as well, and am able to communicate with those which I desire. All you atheists just had a what the frack moment eh? You thought it all ended with a couple of books and forums. =)

Far from a different label, it is a different thing... These atheists don't care about any of this 'junk' either. They never will bother with it, and as a rather apt analogy it's sort of the difference between 'being' and 'acting' like something. Certainly we agree on certain philosophies, but there is point where we drastically diverge. Nothing exists outside of an atheists head. They are merely practicing the small parts which they can see, but like a stage actor they can only go so far with that. There is much more to it than what they can emulate, but of course what they can see for themselves is intrinsically correct. In fairness some people are terrified of these types of experiences though they will never admit to it. That in fact was a large limitation to myself when I started walking this path.

All that said, I started an atheistic Satanist. I grew to what I am now, and if I was sitting back there where I was twenty or so years back I would be thinking that much of this is hard to swallow since I wouldn't be able to observe it. Take nothing I say as an insult, but rather an as understanding... One should GROW to understand things in a spiritual sense not take my commentary some type of blind faith presumption. Ye seeker must seek or you sit. =) My thirst for that in completely insatiable and that is what has driven me to this point. I feel most of the atheists would have a hard time with these concepts, but you know what? I'm fine with that. There are a lot of barriers you must destroy before you can legitimately can understand my perspective. (And no, your sanity ISN'T one of them!) :fork: Some of you will care to do so... Some will find it unimportant... it really is no concern to me.

 

[Orias]

I should of said that from what I have observed a lot of atheists are like me, or are at least like how I once was.

That meaning that whatever they say and speak for, is certain regardless of how "other people" use it.

I think my point still stands in the end however

 

[1137]

I tend to think of atheism as being a form of theism, simply because they both involve "theism" and they both involve "God".

But then again my views can be similar to some atheists, inside we are all Satanists (comparable to babies are atheist at birth), and really we are all close to touching autotheism (atheism leans a little further into it I believe) simply because all forms of thought and belief are tangible to what we convene as being "higher up" on what is more important.

This is utter nonsense. A baby is neither atheist nor theist upon birth. A baby is neutral on such matters as it does not even know such matters exist. Depending on what it's parents, family, and friends put into the baby's head it will either think it is atheistic or theistic, however, this is still false. Believing something to be true is not the same as being brainwashed to believe something is true. Only upon reaching adulthood and seeking their own answers does this person become atheist are theist. Some never reach that point.

To claim a baby does or does not believe in God is absurd. In fact, with so many sources saying that babies are sensitive to energies and spirits, it would probably be more likely that a baby is theistic than atheistic, if such were even possible.

 

[jasonwill2]

I'm just going to say that there are atheists that think that there are spiritual things, but just as an extension of the mental.

Also agnosticism means "we cant know if god exists" or "we can't know YET if god exists" as well as "I'm not sure if god exists". It's more of an attitude towards knowledge and belief than anything else. For example one can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic christian...

 

[Erebus]

Thanks for the answers so far guys, I'm up to my neck in dissertation work at the minute, hence my absence from the forums recently. I have however been reading and enjoying people's replies.

I'll try to respond to some of the questions people have asked when time allows