Atheism

[1137]

I'm not upset. Are you projecting?


I haven't used an ad hominem here. I've been critical of you; not the same thing.


Of course there are nasty atheists. Pick any random group of people and there are bound to be at least a few jerks. But you aren't saying that some of the atheists you encounter are nasty; you're saying that they're "almost exclusively" nasty.

Which do you think is more likely:

- virtually every atheist is a jerk? or
- you tend to get atheists' backs up?

Well if you were actually interested in the actual topic, we'd be discussing this! But hiding behind mod status and passive aggressive ads hominems isn't very convincing reason to engage someone who's never given a worthwhile discussion to me. Were we allowed to block mods you'd be long ignored, maybe one day they'll care again about the content of this forum.

 

[1137]

@1137 - a suggestion, based on your behaviour in this thread and elsewhere:

Instead of flying off the handle, assuming nasty or idiotic interpretations of what atheists tell you, try something new:

Start by assuming the most charitable interpretation of what someone else is telling you. If multiple interpretations are possible, don't assume the worst until you get them to confirm that this really is their position.

Try that consistently for a while and I'd be good money that atheists will suddenly seem to be much nicer than in the past.

Yes, I'm the one calling things BS, idiotic, butt hurt, and throwing first blow ad hominems, etc. Go away penguin, it's bs than you can harass me and attack me with immunity across the forum.

 

[allfoak]

Can't you see it all makes perfect sense?
I don't like your beliefs, so i built a fence.
Can't you see it all makes perfect sense?

 

[Cephus]

Yes, I'm the one calling things BS, idiotic, butt hurt, and throwing first blow ad hominems, etc. Go away penguin, it's bs than you can harass me and attack me with immunity across the forum.

You're the one pretending that attacking your beliefs is the same as attacking yourself, exactly what I've been addressing. Funny how you're so blinded by ideology to recognize yourself doing it.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Atheism is not one with godlessness.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm sure others here might feel similar, but online religious discussion has led to almost exclusively bad experiences with atheists. Not just here mind you, this is not some sort of meta post. These days in person life hardly allows for me to have this conversations, I'm either with a small group of known friends or on the clock, so as far as I can tell from experience, this is the majority of atheists. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure theories on this range from "duh, they're all evil and immoral" to "being anonymous", but I think the answer lies in between.

I wouldn't say 'Atheists' and not necessarily those on this forum, but I would more broadly speak about uncultured and irreligious people who are often the same people and not particularly atheists. I think in any cultural revolution sometimes people are left out or cannot keep up, get overlooked or shut out; and that is what we have right now. We have a huge cultural change. While getting rid of religion people sometimes also lose some of the wealth in its broth. That has happened to a lot of people. At the same time there is quite a lot of freaky bad stuff happening among religious people, which is really what drives such a change.

Responding to some of the other posts, some people have pointed out that religion becomes part of a person's identity, and they presume that this makes religion something beyond discussion. Sometimes that is true, but it isn't the general reason. In general the reasons religion gets beyond conversation are brainwashing, emotional attachments, concern for children and false dichotomy. For example some people think either you are a Christian or you are an atheist. That is a false dichotomy. Some people believe that anyone who disagrees is motivated by Satan. That is brainwashing. Then some people believe that discussing religion makes them feel bad, and that is emotional attachment. Others (call them the Leonard Skynard Mommas) want to put their children onto a known course of development with no distractions where they absolutely fit into a well defined role in life.

 

[Jumi]

It's disingenuous to compare atheists to ISIS and Phelps. Where are the videos of atheists decapitating others? Loudly picketing funerals using slurs?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Sure, of course there are theists like this, they seem to be the majority on BOTH sides. Would you care to address the type of atheist I'm discussing in the OP? You're more than welcome to compare them to similar theists, hell it's likely rooted in many of the same psychological processes.

Well, I sort of thought I did address the "type of atheist [you're] addressing in the OP"... by saying that (again, by my estimation) atheists tend to more readily say just what they think, and a subtext to that was that theists may do so less often. Whether this is due to some fear of reprisal, or a fear that they might sound less than rational/logical, or that they feel bound by the "laws" of their creed governing behavior... or even that they are afraid of how they may poorly represent their chosen faith. Concerning that last, generally most atheists are atheist for widely varying reasons, and there is definitely no set doctrine or credo to toe the line to. So, there is bound to be less inhibiting what is said/communicated from nearly all those of atheistic backgrounds.

As for the idea that atheists tend to get their mentality from what they read, or some general consensus of opinion or foster some communal feeling of "hatred" for theism... I honestly don't think this is the case. I, for one, don't read any popular literature from any "leading" atheist(s). I couldn't care much less, to tell the truth. I prefer to come to my own conclusions in all facets of "spirituality".

 

[Cephus]

It's disingenuous to compare atheists to ISIS and Phelps. Where are the videos of atheists decapitating others? Loudly picketing funerals using slurs?

It doesn't happen often, if at all, but theists tend to be more forgiving of other theists, especially if they are of the same stripe and doesn't make them look bad, than atheists are. If an atheist does something stupid, I'm the first one to be out there criticizing them. Where's the Muslim outrage over Islamic terrorism? I'm just not seeing millions of Muslims standing up and getting upset, are you?

 

[1137]

It's disingenuous to compare atheists to ISIS and Phelps. Where are the videos of atheists decapitating others? Loudly picketing funerals using slurs?

I meant it in that they don't represent atheists as a whole, they are just the loudest of the atheists, like Isis is of Islam, or groups like the far right wing conservatives are of Christianity. As far as violence goes, you may be interested in looking into the USSR.

It doesn't happen often, if at all, but theists tend to be more forgiving of other theists, especially if they are of the same stripe and doesn't make them look bad, than atheists are. If an atheist does something stupid, I'm the first one to be out there criticizing them. Where's the Muslim outrage over Islamic terrorism? I'm just not seeing millions of Muslims standing up and getting upset, are you?

Um, I talk with plenty of Muslims who speak out against and disagree with ISIS. Who do you think is on the front lines of Islamic territory fighting ISIS? Muslims! I certainly didn't agree with, forgive, or ignore the actions of group like ISIS. I find them despicable. Can you please quote where you got this idea from so I can know you're not trolling?

 

[Kuzcotopia]

There's one consistent factor in all your experiences with atheists: you.

Consider the possibility that your approach to these discussions is causing the problem. You generally come across as someone looking to fight with atheists. No surprise if this is what you get.

Of course it is not an atheists fault if they have no other sources to go to, just as it's not a child's fault if they're raised unaware of other metaphysical positions.

Exhibit B, your honor.

Condescending as hell.

He also posts every thread he makes here on a religious debates forum on Reddit. . . Those go much more poorly for him, and probably explain why he feels so rejected by a small minority population with no political power, who's views are still grounds for beheading in many parts of the world.

Yes, but we're just so mean.

 

[Jumi]

I meant it in that they don't represent atheists as a whole, they are just the loudest of the atheists, like Isis is of Islam, or groups like the far right wing conservatives are of Christianity. As far as violence goes, you may be interested in looking into the USSR.

And you blame others for trolling when you're playing the old Soviet Union card eh? I was used to hearing that when I was atheist even here on RF although I'm libertarian. You're LHP right? Have you looked into Richard Ramirez?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You're the one pretending that attacking your beliefs is the same as attacking yourself, exactly what I've been addressing. Funny how you're so blinded by ideology to recognize yourself doing it.

Probably because neither attacking someone's beliefs or their person is productive. Neither leads to an equitable exchange of ideas, neither will spark any sort of progression or mutual understanding, and both are just a self-indulgent venting which, while may be cathartic, does very little in the larger sense. I have tonnes of criticism of various beliefs, both theistic and non-theistic, but leading with 'you have lunatic emotional beliefs I refuse to coddle' isn't helpful for anyone.
And I'm speaking as a very vocal atheist on this forum.

 

[1137]

And you blame others for trolling when you're playing the old Soviet Union card eh? I was used to hearing that when I was atheist even here on RF although I'm libertarian.

Idk what you mean by Soviet Union card. Were they not an atheistic state that did horrible things to those who disagreed, yes or no? Now who is shying away from accepting the bad side of their religion?

You're LHP right? Have you looked into Richard Ramirez?

The Night Stalker? Of course, why? What kind of ignorant SRA territory are you veering off into here?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@1137 Haha, you mark my post as winner but I have some bones to pick over the OP too. Pretty much the same as some others pointed out. Imo, you're letting vocal minorities of atheists be your broad brush all the while you're critiquing that sort of behavior. Once you get out of the states the amount of atheists with a sort of emotional whiplash from leaving Christian sources drops off to a minimum. And even in the states I'm finding this to be less and less of the case, not more and more.

 

[1137]

Exhibit B, your honor.

Condescending as hell.

He also posts every thread he makes here on a religious debates forum on Reddit. . . Those go much more poorly for him, and probably explain why he feels so rejected by a small minority population with no political power, who's views are still grounds for beheading in many parts of the world.

Yes, but we're just so mean.

I'm sorry you feel reaching out to a wider variety of opinions is somehow a bad thing, though it explains a TON. How is comparing one form of indoctrination to another? Do you really believe that not one single case of such a thing has ever happened to atheists? If all they latch onto is one source, how is this different from a fundamentalist Christian latching onto one source?

 

[Cephus]

Um, I talk with plenty of Muslims who speak out against and disagree with ISIS. Who do you think is on the front lines of Islamic territory fighting ISIS? Muslims! I certainly didn't agree with, forgive, or ignore the actions of group like ISIS. I find them despicable. Can you please quote where you got this idea from so I can know you're not trolling?

I said specifically huge numbers of Muslims. Where are the millions of Muslims, out of the billions on the planet, who are vocally arguing against Islamic terrorism?

 

[Cephus]

Probably because neither attacking someone's beliefs or their person is productive. Neither leads to an equitable exchange of ideas, neither will spark any sort of progression or mutual understanding, and both are just a self-indulgent venting which, while may be cathartic, does very little in the larger sense. I have tonnes of criticism of various beliefs, both theistic and non-theistic, but leading with 'you have lunatic emotional beliefs I refuse to coddle' isn't helpful for anyone.
And I'm speaking as a very vocal atheist on this forum.

I would say it is absolutely productive to attack irrational beliefs. How else are irrational beliefs going to change? You make the assumption that these are valuable ideas. Certainly they may be to the people who hold them, but objectively? I beg to differ. The goal is not to share, the goal is to correct. The goal is to come to a better understanding of what reality actually is, not how people might wish that it was. Wishful thinking doesn't demonstrably help anyone. In fact, it harms everyone.

 

[Augustus]

This is best illustrated by the death of skepticism in "free thinking" atheistic circles, replaced by essentially a new dogma of a universe without god. Materialism must be true because god can't possibly exist, theists must be brainwashed because they couldn't possibly have valid reason to believe, etc. and so on. Even the need to defend one's own position was dropped, in favor of simply mocking and stalling the theist.

I wouldn't say that atheism constitutes a dogma. It tends to be a position that one arrives at either unconsciously, or through reasoned thought.

There is a lack of scepticism amongst many Western 'freethinkers' though, but this is less to do with atheism itself and more to do with their broader worldviews. They tend not to realise the heavy influence that religious traditions (mostly Christianity) have had on most of their belief systems, and tend to believe that if only everyone was better educated and more open minded then everyone would be forced to agree that they were right. They tend to be unaware of the strongly subjective (and often irrational) aspects that comprise the 'Rationalist' worldview.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I said specifically huge numbers of Muslims. Where are the millions of Muslims, out of the billions on the planet, who are vocally arguing against Islamic terrorism?

Probably for the same reason I and most atheists refuse to be pinned for the actions of the atheist leadership in the Soviet Union (@1337). Because their beliefs are so radically different from mine that I feel to call me to apologize for their behavior is unjust. I'm not a totalitarian who believes in forced state atheism. Most Muslims don't believe in forced state Islam either.