Orias
Left Hand Path
Belief in does not have to catagorize such a denomination as the "positive" existence of a "God" or diety.
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Atheist Desire to Disprove God
- Thread starter asketikos
- Start date
Belief in does not have to catagorize such a denomination as the "positive" existence of a "God" or diety.
outhouse
Atheistically
Alceste
Vagabond
I'm a philosophical Taoist. Nothing to do with theism. Your comment makes me question the breadth of your awareness of different methods of spiritual exploration.
McBell
Unbound
Are you saying that you think atheist members of forums with the word religion in the name are "closet theists" or something?
Alceste
Vagabond
It seems that Civil Shepherd, like many theists, does not believe in atheists.
Fair enough, since I find it hard to believe anybody actually believes god/s exist/s.What can I say? At least I am prepared to demonstrate my existence beyond a reasonable doubt, unlike his God.
Civil Shephard
Active Member
Hardly... I think that bullies of any faith or non-faith are faking themselves out. They cannot find honesty enough to at least admit they don't really know what they believe the know... nor do the truely believe what they pretend to believe. Like I've been saying now for some time, "I don't know" are the three most powerful words in any human language.
I know a Creator I AM. I only say I believe what I know so as not to offend those who cannot believe that I know what they say I only believe. It's rhetorical and redundant in the extreme yet to break this cycle I submit that an admission of not knowing is better than lieing to ones self.
You do not believe there is a Creator of the Universe. I know there is an original being whose awareness of being came in the form of the first and only original thought I AM. Since that time we who were created by that original thought have said and done many things to reconcile the fact that we are not the original thinker but rather are creations of I AM without the power to remain alive and thinking or even stop our thinking... so we all are in our own way reconciling our being by what we chose to believe or not believe.
So in short... no... I don't believe in real atheist.
Civil Shephard
Active Member
It seems that Civil Shepherd, like many theists, does not believe in atheists.
What can I say? At least I am prepared to demonstrate my existence beyond a reasonable doubt, unlike his God.
You cannot demostrate your own existence to others anymore than Jesus can demonstrate his existance to you. We all exist in the seat of thoughts and emotions that make up our being... the only real existence is that which we hold in ourselves. What I find demonstrable is when we chose the best ideals of empathy and love towards others in such a way that it reconciles the existance of others to themselves. Sexual love is one form of such expression but serving free soup and praying for others effectively is a higher form. I think the highest form is those who commit their lives and actions to bring an awareness of our common creator I AM to the minds of those who want and need God most... those who are poor in spirit.
waitasec
Veteran Member
did you consider one of the reasons for such hostile actions is in direct response to being subjected to those who think themselves as the moral superior who infringe upon the inalienable rights of others?
Civil Shephard
Active Member
See! That's why we're friends... of course those who claim the moral high ground because of God in their lives are denying God himself and looking down upon those they are meant to lift up to a level of faith and not a level of goodness. Faith in itself is not goodness even for a Christian. Now this is an area of opinion for me but one based on scriptures that speak to the self righteous mind. Now any man or woman of any belief or non-belief can be self righteous and I think it's only those who are honest with themselves about their moral state who can seek out the rights of others.
Athiest nor Christian can claim the moral high ground due to their beliefs or non-beliefs. And
Wait a sec waitasec... i did say "I think that bullies of any faith or non-faith are faking themselves out. They cannot find honesty enough to at least admit they don't really know what they believe the know... nor do the truely believe what they pretend to believe. Like I've been saying now for some time, "I don't know" are the three most powerful words in any human language."
So no... I don't stand against the "the inalienable rights of others" by my faith but rather by the necessary rule of democracy to define what those personal rights are. And those issues I'm afraid are too high for me. Better for me to be as I am and preach the gospel with my life and not judgement... with encouragement and not self righteous condescension... and with a sheepish grin I know darn well I can come off as condescending but I would be honest even then if I had meant to be so.
Orias
Left Hand Path
It does, you said you have never found a "tribe" where they do not have a belief in a spirit or diety, yet everyone has a definition of "God", whether it is typical or not. I simply answered that not all tribes are listed as "positive" believers in the existence of "God". Sorry if I worded it funny.
Let's just simply say man's labels lead to such understandings. Everyone does at least one "thing" habitually,or follows something with certainity in it's "truth" or provocation of the mind.
Now whether one choses to label these things "God" is without insight, for it is the very label that subjects you and itself to hypocrisy and self deceit.
This is for people who both believe in God, and the latter Opposition.
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KnightOwl
Member
It sounds here like you are equating atheist to a bully of non-faith. If that is in fact what you are saying, I find that arrogant and presumptuous. Atheism is not a belief that there is no god, but the state of not holding a belief in a theistic being aka a god. That atheist could believe there is no god or could be agnostic and be either not sure or of the opinion that one cannot truly know if there is a god or is not. They could be like me and simply choose to wait until demonstrated satisfactorily before believing. Personally, I doubt very highly anyone will ever demonstrate the existence of a god to me sufficiently to make me believe there is one, but I'm ambivalent about that ever occurring. If it happens, I'll deal with that bridge when I cross it.
Maybe you would still call me a bullying non-theist because I question Christians and other theists about their belief in a god all the time, but my motivation has nothing to do with some notion you seem to have that I am being dishonest. Again, if I misconstrue what you're saying, I apologize. Your manner of writing seems a bit abstract to me so I might not quite get what you're trying to say.
Others can see me and touch me so I think I can actually demonstrate my own existence to others more so than Jesus unless you're talking about those who lived in Jesus' time, assuming of course he did exist. Of course, if you mean we can't be certain any of us are real, there's that, but I prefer to deal with the reality we observe as opposed to a philosophical hypothesis which has no evidence to support it. Besides, if we aren't experiencing reality, then it is entirely possible that we can't even be sure of our own existence which you presume we could.
St Giordano Bruno
Well-Known Member
No, it is just that I find it darn hard to believe the universe was created by a living being or some omnipotant alien life form. That is what classical theism boils down to.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i guess my response is to
the non believer would be first to say they don't know, a characteristic of the skeptic
you did say
if one says god is this and god is that to refute such a claim the skeptic would need to say this god existed for the sake of argument.
the person making the claim set up the labels and the skeptic is there to refute it.
the question was:
you started with "hardly" then ended you post with
btw,i didn't say you infringed on the inalienable rights of others, only you can say that for yourself, if you understood that i was implying you were..that was the not the intent of my reply...
from this response what i got out of it is that you believe atheists are closet theists...
my question is, how do you know that?
Civil Shephard
Active Member
Please trust me when I say I'm only arrogant and presumptuous when I deal with self righteous Christians inorder to answer folly with folly for a friend who might take the hint. This thread has shown there are as many definitions of athiest as there are of christian or theist. I am and I AMist... and you are ist too for me anywho...
It's just... I'm trying to communicate how I feel no offense at those who chose to take an athiest stance. If you'll note I did qualify that there are bullies of faith and non faith so I did not lump athiest alone into the realm of bullyhood.
Ahh... good, please don't take me too seriously and believe I don't know what I know as much as I do know what I don't know. So I apologize too... I think of honesty as the highest form of truth. The presence of God in my life is honesty for me. I believe I can best describe it as taking some really harsh yet really great constructive criticism. Which I dare say I've had some real eye opening conversations with athiest who've pulled my covers... to me this is the presence of I AM. A willingness to be the best we can be by being the best with one another. So if you see me being arrogant please call me on it.
I was going for the "Breakfast of Champions" thing there a bit. I liked reading ole' Vonegut and Hielien as well. Didn't know they were athiest at the time and that I was supposed to be reading CS Lewis or Frank Peretti or those silly left behind series.
God is to me the original awareness of being... that smile friendly folks share when eyes meet and fellow existance is accepted... even when we take stances that differ that sometimes make the few feet betwixt pupils seem an untraversable gulf.
Civil Shephard
Active Member
Oh nooo.... I realized that as I hope you realize I'm pointing to the behavior of people in general no matter faith or not. Also... I wonder what happened to the y's at the end of my they's cause the appears for they and through me off. I suppose the the in they gave me pause to accept the fact that we are as much the I AM as they. So I hope my fanciful poetic absurdities don't translate into either giving or taking offence. I like soup kitchens more than political soap boxes.
from this response what i got out of it is that you believe atheists are closet theists...
my question is, how do you know that?
Yeee... yeah I contradict myself sometimes. I think it's because I'm a christian conservative creole who apologizes to himself for all that cotton. It's really that I think there is a twinge in each of us of the original being of the nature of I AM. So it's hard for me to think of anyone as totally without the original awareness of being within themselves. Otherwise why share the gospel and help folks study Jesus teachings? What would be the point. So my bias is sure.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Alceste
Vagabond
Civil Shephard, all I can do is reassure you I genuinely do not believe in the Christian god. To me, he is exactly as compelling as Thor, Isis or Poseidon. I know as surely as you know otherwise that your religion is an entirely human fabrication, like all religions. When I feel a deeper mystical connection with the universe I do not interpret it as you do - as an affirmation that one arbitrarily selected batch of religious dogma is true. In fact I do my best not to interpret it at all, in order to maintain the integrity of the experience as a memory (nothing added, nothing subtracted). I know how much you need to believe that has something to do with Christianity, but it doesn't. Not a thing. In fact, it has more to do with Zen Buddhism or Taoism.
Sum1sGruj
Active Member
I do not believe that all atheists try to disprove religion, secretly or obviously, but the fact that there is an atheist icon/symbol speaks volumes.
What it is, is a 'high' that some theoreticians are getting because of scientific advancement.
It appeases me to know that such an atheist is an idiot. The origins of reality will always only be speculative, and science hasn't even been able to prove that the Abrahamic religions are false.
And as a Christian, I say unto them: You are wasting your time
What it is, is a 'high' that some theoreticians are getting because of scientific advancement.
It appeases me to know that such an atheist is an idiot. The origins of reality will always only be speculative, and science hasn't even been able to prove that the Abrahamic religions are false.
And as a Christian, I say unto them: You are wasting your time
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McBell
Unbound
Really?
What is this icon/symbol?
And what does this icon/symbol say?
Roflmao
It is not on science to prove religions fake.
It is on the religions to prove themselves true.
Sum1sGruj
Active Member
Really, you've never seen the atheist icon? Wow.
And religion does not need to prove itself true. Unlike science, which needs to confirm itself, religion is pure.
It just so happens that science fails to confirm itself in this respect.
Here you are again confirming what I spoke in the other thread: trying to bash religion with an imaginary club. Way to go.
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