this is where my douts come in, people have their own beliefs... surely there can only be one correct religion, if there was even a God.
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Atheist- I Cannot comprehend a God, I'm interested in why you believe.
- Thread starter Atheist94
- Start date
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
How do you figure? Assuming God's existence, does it follow that any religion understands it?
Levite
Higher and Higher
Well, I suppose in some ways I was ready to believe. I was raised in an observant Jewish home. My experiences with Jewish life were very positive, and my parents and community were always encouraging with questions and explorations, and comparative religion in an extremely pluralistic fashion. So my experience of religion was not unduly oppressive, or rigid, or closed-minded, or unpleasant.
Nonetheless, as often happens, when I was a teenager,I went through a period of extreme skepticism and rebellion, which translated into being agnostic to the point of atheism, and a near total lack of Jewish observance for some years. I actually wanted to believe in God, I just thought there was not enough reasoned evidence for me to do so, given that the good so often suffer and the evil so often prosper.
But I had a revelatory experience one Rosh Hashanah, when I was in my early twenties.
I can't really explain it. I had gone to services at the synagogue with my parents, because my mom insisted. But I was just standing there, not knowing what I was doing there, feeling vaguely hypocritical, when suddenly, it was as though someone had put a hand on my shoulder and said my name. I don't mean that literally, of course-- I didn't physically feel anything. But it felt like that. An extremely intense sensation of not being alone, of someone standing with me, almost like being in an embrace. And I got a distinct feeling, which wasn't literally like hearing a voice, but it was almost like hearing the echo of someone saying something. And if I had to roughly put into words what I thought it might have said, it would be, "Don't worry. It's going to be okay." And somehow, things just felt different after that. I knew there was a God. And it just didn't matter whether His existence was objectively, scientifically provable: that didn't seem relevant anymore.
So after that, I slowly began to observe and practice again. And I studied more, and began to read theology and philosophy, until I began to have some language to express what I felt about God. And then, in my thirties, I went to rabbinical school. Today I am a rabbi, married to another rabbi, and entirely comfortable being an observant, believing Jew.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yeah, well... that's inevitable when nobody really gets it.
Ever heard the parable of the blind sages and the elephant?
The Wizard
Active Member
No, no.. not mocking or anything, just adding to alternative open minded ideas or perspectives... like on Men in Black, the universe was just a marble in someone's boil...those views intrigue me usually...
No i have not
This is where i'm stunted, i only believe in the literal and physical things.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Once upon a time in a jungle kingdom, there arose rumors that a mysterious new beast was lurking in the dense growth outside the city walls. Because nobody had ever clearly seen the beast in the clear by the light of day, various inconsistent descriptions of the beast were circulating throughout the kingdom. Some even speculated the mysterious new beast might be the fabled “elephant” that was rumored to exist in far away lands. Wanting to settle the rumors once and for all, the king ordered his five wisest sages to go into the jungle, find the fabled elephant, and bring back a clear and accurate description of it. The sages spent several months in the jungle searching for the elephant without any luck, and decided to abandon their search. But as they were returning back to civilization, they were overtaken by a thick fog, got separated from one another, and became lost.
That night, as the sages separately wandered through the dense jungle in the darkness, each of them came into contact with a different part of the elephant for a brief moment. One sage touched the elephant’s tusk, another it’s trunk, another its ear, another its leg, and another its side.
Eventually, each of the sages made it back to civilization, eager to give his description of the elephant to the king. But when the sages gave their reports to the king, they offered widely different descriptions of it:
“An elephant is slender and sharp like a spear,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s tusk.
“An elephant is long, round, and flexible like a snake,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s trunk.
“An elephant is like a leather drape,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s ear.
“An elephant is thick, round, and solid like a tree trunk,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s leg.
“An elephant is broad and flat like a wall,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s side.
Upset by their conflicting descriptions of the elephant, the king erupted: “Fools! You claim to be wise men! You each claim to have found the elephant, and yet you offer me such widely different descriptions of it?! Your contradictory reports make the truth of the matter obvious! There is no such thing as an elephant!”
That night, as the sages separately wandered through the dense jungle in the darkness, each of them came into contact with a different part of the elephant for a brief moment. One sage touched the elephant’s tusk, another it’s trunk, another its ear, another its leg, and another its side.
Eventually, each of the sages made it back to civilization, eager to give his description of the elephant to the king. But when the sages gave their reports to the king, they offered widely different descriptions of it:
“An elephant is slender and sharp like a spear,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s tusk.
“An elephant is long, round, and flexible like a snake,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s trunk.
“An elephant is like a leather drape,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s ear.
“An elephant is thick, round, and solid like a tree trunk,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s leg.
“An elephant is broad and flat like a wall,” said the sage who had touched the elephant’s side.
Upset by their conflicting descriptions of the elephant, the king erupted: “Fools! You claim to be wise men! You each claim to have found the elephant, and yet you offer me such widely different descriptions of it?! Your contradictory reports make the truth of the matter obvious! There is no such thing as an elephant!”
Levite
Higher and Higher
That's not weird. That's basically a form of pantheist process theology. A touch unusual, maybe, but not weird.
Levite
Higher and Higher
I don't think it's a question of stunted. It's hard to choose to believe in something one has never personally experienced. Some people can manage to do so, but most can't, and I include myself in that-- it's not a judgmental statement, but a sympathetic one. I don't know that I would've been able to find my way back to Judaism without having had a personal relevatory experience.
They have each had physical proof of this "elephant", if they had the technology we have today they have show this evidence, we can not show evidence of God and we never will. i understand the idea of the story, just because there are differnt interpretations doesnt mean it doesnt exist, but if we compare all the interpretations, atleast the ones i know i see no evidence at all, or atleast i dont want to be involved with this "God"
I believe the Atom exists, i believe the Moon is real, i believe the vastness of the cosmos. i have not experienced these, i have not felt them physically.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Sure, but you're made up of atoms. If you really wanted to see one, you could go to a sophisticated laboratory and do so. And you've seen the moon, every night. And you've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of pictures of the cosmos, taken by various advanced telescopes.
I'm not suggesting one has to literally have physical tactile contact with a phenomenon in order to believe in it. But it's relatively easy to believe in things for which proof is readily acquirable, or which we have seen ourselves-- either with our own two eyes, or photographically.
But even if one does have a revelatory experience, it can be difficult to comprehend it and reconcile its meaning, since not only might not one have physically experienced a direct sensation, but what one has experienced, human language is generally quite poor at conveying.
And that is even more true in this day and age, when our society is extremely dismissive of anything that cannot be measured and recorded and (ideally) replicated by our technology; and when our cultures have become unused to sharing experiences of the numinous, and even our words for such things are often disused, archaic, or have become associated with Romantic cliches and children's stories. We have little mainstream support for experiencing God today; and, unfortunately, even such experiences of God that are most commonly found in our media are usually extremely fundamentalist, if not radically so, and offputting for many (if not most) people who might otherwise be seekers.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Personal experience and social-cultural considerations.
You did want short didn't you.
wa:do
Erebus
Well-Known Member
I'm a pragmatist who's seen some pretty weird things. Theism is the natural outcome of that.
Twig pentagram
High Priest
I equate god with reality, and since I AM the perciever of my subjective universe I AM what I like to call the Identifying conscious. I equate god with reality because I think reality created itself, and when gods that are seperate from the universe is in question I AM agnostic.