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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
This has nothing to do with what I asked.

Does the elephant the blind people are touching exist outside the minds of the blind people?

Sounds much like we are having a discussion on Solipsism?

".. Some people hold that, while it cannot be proven that anything independent of one's mind exists, the point that solipsism makes is irrelevant. This is because, whether the world as we perceive it exists independently or not, we cannot escape this perception (except via death), hence it is best to act assuming that the world is independent of our minds."

"However, being aware simply acknowledges its existence; it does not identify the actual creations until they are observed by the user."

So I will just offer ? It is beyond my pay grade.

Regards Tony
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Sounds much like we are having a discussion on Solipsism?

".. Some people hold that, while it cannot be proven that anything independent of one's mind exists, the point that solipsism makes is irrelevant. This is because, whether the world as we perceive it exists independently or not, we cannot escape this perception (except via death), hence it is best to act assuming that the world is independent of our minds."

"However, being aware simply acknowledges its existence; it does not identify the actual creations until they are observed by the user."

So I will just offer ? It is beyond my pay grade.

Regards Tony

It's not beyond my pay grade.
"Does the elephant the blind people are touching exist outside the minds of the blind people?"
Yes.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Only in your dreams, but your dreams are not going to make the Baha'i Faith go away because it is here to stay.

Nothing extra?

Over 20,000 unique works by Baha'u'llah have been identified at the Baha'i World Centre, comprising just under seven million words. The Baha'i Faith is a scriptural religion; the current written texts are considered fully authoritative.Sep 23, 2019
Themes: Sacred texts, The Baha’i Faith
Article written by: Moojan Momen

Baha'i sacred texts - The British Library

LOL! Have you not heard of argumentum ad populum?

Millions extra words does not necessarily mean extra truth
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Where does Daniel say that MrB came to do the decoding of the Bible?
I never claimed that Daniel said "Baha'u'llah came to do the decoding of the Bible.".

However, like most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess its nature beforehand.

Decoding the Bible =
Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. A day is a year according to the day-year principle, and the 2,300 years came in 1844 when the Bab declared His mission, and nine years later the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. The math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before (knowledge shall be increased).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LOL! Have you not heard of argumentum ad populum?

Millions extra words does not necessarily mean extra truth
Lol, argumentum ad populum absolutely does not apply.

I suggest you read up on the logical fallacies before you try to apply them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::oops::oops::oops:

the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Lol, argumentum ad populum absolutely does not apply.

I suggest you read up on the logical fallacies before you try to apply them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::oops::oops::oops:


Your mind is too narrow, Tb. I suggest you think, just for once, outside your box. Argumentum ad populum is the equivalent of Argumentum ad verba. I thought you would have realized this.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your mind is too narrow, Tb. I suggest you think, just for once, outside your box. Argumentum ad populum is the equivalent of Argumentum ad verba. I thought you would have realized this.
You are not even in the same ball park. :rolleyes::oops: Why not just admit you were wrong, just for once?

Argumentum Ad Verecundiam
(Argument from Authority)


Abstract:
The argument from appeal to authority, the ad verecundiam fallacy, is characterized with examples and shown to be a fallacy when the appeal is to an irrelevant authority and nonfallacious when the appeal is to a relevant authority.

Ad Verecundiam
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Intentionally muddying the waters, can be seen as directing a person to give either a yes or a no answer, when they offer there is more to it than a yes and I answer.

Yes and no answers are requested by people that wish to direct a conversation to a specific point, as to validate what they offer.

Regards Tony

Rubbish.

If I asked you, "Are you Transmuting soul," would you "yes," or would you think that I was trying to muddy the waters by asking a yes no question?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
That does not eliminate your personal biases.

You don't really expect me to think they remain unchanged though, do you? Science, by using peer review, is able to reduce and/or eliminate any personal biases that may be brought by one person. This happens because when other people run the same tests, they will not share the same biases as the first person, and also the more people examine the work, the more people there are who can spot situations where someone's bias may have inadvertently been introduced, and thus it can be corrected for.

It is, but so what? That does not mean I have not verified it.

I would say that if it is unfalsifiable it can't be verified. How can anything unfalsifiable be verified?

Messengers of God can only be explained by the existence of God because “Messengers OF GOD” cannot exist unless there is a God.

Meaningless doubletalk.

Crew of the starship Enterprise can only be explained by the existence of the starship Enterprise because "crew of the starship Enterprise" cannot exist unless there is a starship Enterprise.

Look, I just proved that Star Trek is real.

He did have an agenda, to represent God, serve the Cause of God, and offer the proof that God exists. In carrying out His agenda items He provided evidence that supported His agenda items.

You are using your conclusion as one of your premises, namely, that God exists.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No, they do not carry the same meaning because a person can know something even if it is not an established fact.

If it has not been established as a fact, how can they justifiably claim to know it? Remember, the term "know" carries with it the implication that what is being claimed to be known is true.

We do have proper evidence and we have more than just gut feelings. We have a mind, so it is our job to look at the evidence and determine what it means.

You don't have proper evidence when it comes to Mr B being a reincarnation of Jesus.

No, it starts with entertaining the possibility that there could be a God. Then you look at the evidence and try to determine if that is really the case.

Starting with your conclusion and then trying to find evidence that supports it is a terrible way to get to the truth. It's like you are TRYING to introduce biases into it!

I have posted the evidence on numerous occasions so I am not going to post it again. If you want to see the claims and the evidence that support those claims you will have to look at this post.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Yeah, I don't see how that is anything more than reading a claim and "feeling" it to be true.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Rubbish.

If I asked you, "Are you Transmuting soul," would you "yes," or would you think that I was trying to muddy the waters by asking a yes no question?

Well that also would require more explanation, as I am not TransmutingSoul :D ;) that is an avatar.

Regards Tony
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Sounds much like we are having a discussion on Solipsism?

".. Some people hold that, while it cannot be proven that anything independent of one's mind exists, the point that solipsism makes is irrelevant. This is because, whether the world as we perceive it exists independently or not, we cannot escape this perception (except via death), hence it is best to act assuming that the world is independent of our minds."

"However, being aware simply acknowledges its existence; it does not identify the actual creations until they are observed by the user."

So I will just offer ? It is beyond my pay grade.

Regards Tony

There's really no point in trying to talk to you, is there? You seem utterly incapable of providing any coherent answer to any question I ask.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There's really no point in trying to talk to you, is there? You seem utterly incapable of providing any coherent answer to any question I ask.

I have watched your discussions with TB. I see all points were fairly and honestly answered, with many of the answers I also saw as logical and reasonable.

So, Is there any point at all of continuing discussion after all points have been addressed and you have refuted them?

I will leave it there, wish you all the best and Regards Tony.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
You are not even in the same ball park. :rolleyes::oops: Why not just admit you were wrong, just for once?

Argumentum Ad Verecundiam
(Argument from Authority)


Abstract:
The argument from appeal to authority, the ad verecundiam fallacy, is characterized with examples and shown to be a fallacy when the appeal is to an irrelevant authority and nonfallacious when the appeal is to a relevant authority.
Ad Verecundiam
And what does all this verbiage have to do with the fact that more words do not equate to more wisdom / truth / knowledge?
You don't appear to know what Argumentum Ad Verba means.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And what does all this verbiage have to do with the fact that more words do not equate to more wisdom / truth / knowledge?
You don't appear to know what Argumentum Ad Verba means.
I know what it means because I just posted the definition. However it does not apply in this situation because I am not appealing to an irrelevant authority.

Argumentum Ad Verecundiam
(Argument from Authority)

Abstract:
The argument from appeal to authority, the ad verecundiam fallacy, is characterized with examples and shown to be a fallacy when the appeal is to an irrelevant authority and nonfallacious when the appeal is to a relevant authority.
Ad Verecundiam

Moreover, the extensive Writings of Baha'u'llah have nothing to do with an Argument from Authority so the fallacy does not apply.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
More words do not 'necessarily' equate to more wisdom / truth / knowledge but Baha'u'llah He did bring more wisdom, truth, and knowledge than had ever been revealed by any other Messenger of God.

“The enormous expansion in the scope and volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings, after His return from Sulaymáníyyih, is yet another distinguishing feature of the period under review. The verses that streamed during those years from His pen, described as “a copious rain” by Himself, whether in the form of epistles, exhortations, commentaries, apologies, dissertations, prophecies, prayers, odes or specific Tablets, contributed, to a marked degree, to the reformation and progressive unfoldment of the Bábí community, to the broadening of its outlook, to the expansion of its activities and to the enlightenment of the minds of its members. So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.” A certain MuḥammadKarím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, pp. 137-138
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You seem to have no idea what you've claimed and what you "never claimed". :rolleyes:
I never claimed that Daniel said "Baha'u'llah came to do the decoding of the Bible."

Daniel did not say "Baha'u'llah came to do the decoding of the Bible" because Baha'u'llah had not even been born at that time.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

We were expected to figure out who the NEW Messenger who would unseal the Bible would be, if we wanted to know.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Of course. Those facts actually do exist but those facts don't have the same significance to everyone who reads about them.

Facts are things that are and/or can be shown to be true in reality. You have been asked on numerous occasions throughout different topics and couldn't show one fact. And you admit that it's impossible for you to show that messengers of God are a fact. No facts exist, but you're still a Baha'i. And you've just proved what I said in my older post.

What you say or what anyone on this forum says does not hurt me at all because I am firm in my beliefs and I also know that I am not dishonest.

Just because you can deceit yourself, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can do it for everyone as well. You can deceit yourself that you're not hurt but others can observe your actions and know that you're hurt. Making threats to other people is an example. I'm not saying that you are necessarily hurt at this exact moment. You can deceit yourself that you are not dishonest, but again, your actions can show others that you are dishonest. If you deny saying something, other people can go back to previous posts and see if you did say it or not. If they post your exact quote and you still say that you never said that, then it clearly shows that you are dishonest. Again I'm not necessarily saying that you are being dishonest at this exact moment.

So answer this hen. How would you know that you are not dishonest if you are currently active in self-deception?

What I know to be true is not anyone else's business, it is personal to me.
Then keep it to yourself. When a personal feeling/thought/idea is known by another individual other than yourself, we can logically conclude that the reason they are/were able to know, is because you have shared it with other(s).

You can disagree and say I don't really know it but you cannot change what I know to be true unless you can prove it is false, in which case I would reconsider what I believe.
Sorry, but reality and logic doesn't bend it's laws just because you want it to. Your way of reasoning is illogical. I dealt with this in some older posts, which you basically reasoned it to, "I know it's true because I know it's true."

Let's break it down again. You claim to know what's true unless I prove it to be false. So according to what you said above, it's safe to conclude that you know it's true that your reasoning is logical. Obviously, if you disagree with my conclusion, it will make whatever you just said, to be illogical. I'll break it down and demonstrate that it's actually illogical.

So you know and believe that proposition A1 is true unless I prove it to be false. After I proved that A1 is false, you are reconsidering your beliefs. And this is where your reasoning falls apart. Since I've just proved that A1 is false, this would mean that A1 was never true to begin with, therefore, you did not know that A1 was true. You only believed that A1 was true. This is why your method is flawed, since it's based on false belief. You believe things to be true before knowing that it's true. It's also based on special pleading and cherry picking. From the beginning, you wanted A1 to be true, resulting in cherry picking information associated with A1, while disregarding the rest. And in order for those cherry picked pieces of information to fit with your design, you made special pleas for those information so that they will fit in the places that your requires. Instead of coming up with a hypothesis, then look at all the information objectively to see which ones are actual evidence and follow whichever direction they lead to, and make a conclusion where the evidence ends, you did the opposite. You come up with a hypothesis and using it as your conclusion before you even look at any of the information. And by starting with the conclusion, you looked at the information subjectively and cherry picked pieces of information to fill in the holes of what you have designed.

And before you start accusing me of making all these things up according to how I want it, I can explain why you would be wrong. All of what I just said was formulated through making observations of what you've shared in this public forum, your arguments, claims, beliefs, ideas etc, regardless of whether or not it's personal or impersonal.

Your core argument(s) start off with your conclusion as its foundation, and your way up. And this foundation consists of Baha'u'llah being a messenger of God and using his writings to guide you to your conclusion, all while going to your religion's grandfather to cherry pick and reinterpret verses however you want so that it fits your religious beliefs.

It's self defeating from what you said in bold.

That was not a threat, it was a warning. Why would I deny what I posted? It is all there in black and white.
Please don't talk about this threat case to the public. It's against forum policy.

I don't care what you say about my beliefs but I will not tolerate being called dishonest. I have many character defects but dishonesty is not one of them. Would you like it if I called you dishonest? Did I ever call you or anyone else dishonest? That is a personal insult and it is uncalled for. When people can stick with the subject matter and hold their positions they have no need for personal insults.

You're wrong. It's a fact, and it's all there in black and white.

And of course you won't call me dishonest, because you have no reason and/or evidence of me being dishonest.


I disagree that I have been refuted but you believe you have refuted me so you are not being dishonest.

You disagree that I have evidence but I believe I have evidence so I am not being dishonest.
I know that fall is here, but there's no need to make a strawman here.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So answer this hen. How would you know that you are not dishonest if you are currently active in self-deception?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.....
How would you know if you were currently active in self-deception?

A person is not dishonest unless they knowingly tell a lie. If a person is self-deceived they are not being dishonest.
Just because you can deceit yourself, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can do it for everyone as well. You can deceit yourself that you're not hurt but others can observe your actions and know that you're hurt.
No, you don't know if I am hurt, only I know if I am hurt, and God knows.
And you are wrong, because I am not hurt at all. Just because I don't want to post to someone anymore that does not mean I am hurt.

I have no interest in deceiving anybody. Everyone on this forum knows that Tb is an open book, everyone except you.
I (don't) wonder why you react differently to me then everyone else.

I have no interest in having a conversation with you because whenever people start talking about me as if they know me, what I am thinking or feeling or my motives I'm done. I don't even read any more of the post. Everyone I post to can stick to the subject at hand and not make derogatory comments about my person, everyone except you. I don't need that in my life and I have no reason to tolerate it. I know myself and I don't need to be told who I am. Even counselors have sent me away because they said I know myself so well I don't need their help.

Happy trails.
 
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