• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
A person can 'claim' to know something even if it is not true, people do that all the time.

Likewise, a person can claim to know something that is true, even if it cannot be proven as a fact.
The definition says: aware of the truth or factuality of something.

I know. I've already said this.

What I've ALSO been saying is that if the thing is false, then no one can ACTUALLY know it. They can only ever THINK they know it.

There is evidence. Just because you do not consider it proper that does not make it non-evidence.

There is no evidence. Just because you want to present subjective opinion and gut feeling as evidence, does not make it evidence.

That's true, that is part of it, but there are also the teachings, and that is what I believed in at first. Belief in God came later.

And the fact that you already believed Baha'i had no influence on you reaching the conclusion that God exists?

No, I do not see a flaw. Evidence FOR a claim supports that claim. Now, if I wanted to disprove the claim, I would look for evidence that refutes the claim. For example, I would try to dig up some dirt on Baha'u'llah and what He did on His mission.

If I was not already a Baha'i and i was a seeker I would want to look at everything that is available to look at that has been written about Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith, both pro and con, but I have already seen the pro and the con so I have no need to look at it again.

I clearly explained how it was a flaw. Our beliefs must ALWAYS be tested. The moment we decide that we've got the truth and thus don't need to actually investigate things properly is the moment that we can't claim to have an accurate view of the real world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Same old problem, the Baha'i Faith says Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses were also manifestations. Were they? Did they really exist? Are the Bible stories about them accurate? Why did one religion need to have four manifestations? Plus, not one of them was the "perfect" reflection of God, so if they don't fit the description of a manifestation, why make them manifestations? Then, some sects in Hinduism have several incarnations of Vishnu, but Baha'is never mention them, only Krishna.
Yeah, same old problems and they won't ever be resolved to your satisfaction. The answers matter to you but not to me because the older religions are all ancient history now and I don't care about ancient history.
So how reliable are the teachings of Baha'u'llah? Are there questionable beliefs? I think there is enough there to question whether or not he is a true messenger... to question whether or not he is the fulfillment of every major religion.
Question away but I don't think you will ever be satisfied with any answers you find so why bother? If you don't believe by now I highly doubt you ever will. Why not just forget it and walk away and try to enjoy what is left of your life?
And those are things we can check and verify. What were the prophecies? And after we check just a few, none of them are not without some problems.
You will always find problems so why bother to check anything?
The Baha'i Faith is just another new religion making all sorts of claims about God and who are his messengers. Okay, why should we believe Baha'u'llah? Why should we trust him? It's very, very similar to what those other religious movements say as to why we should believe them.
I never said you should believe in Baha'u'llah. Nobody should believe unless they really believe. There is a very simple solution to your conundrum -- walk away and forget about the Baha'i Faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Was the Bart Ehrman? I'm fine with the resurrection, and the virgin birth, being embellishments added into the Jesus story. But then, why call any of it true? And Baha'is do. But what? Virgin birth and a moving star? Satan and hell? Inherited sin from Adam? etc. etc. I asked you that question and you said that it was the parables that you believed were true. Well that's great, but that ain't much. And it was the same writers that told the other things that wrote down these parables. How well did they remember them? Was there a long oral tradition of the sayings and parables of Jesus going around before the gospels were written? There's tons of reasons to doubt and not to believe, but we know... people do believe. They'll believe all sorts of religious things, because most of the time, the religion requires them to believe it all... Even if stupid.
I think the video made its point about the inaccuracy of the New Testament. What Bart Ehrman said applies to the whole NT, not just the resurrection stories. It is not accurate history in any manner shape or form.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure, the Baha'i Faith is much better than those old religions. But it is still an invisible, unknowable God. Way too easy for people to make things up about him. You choose to believe, then fine. You choose to be here on the forum talking about your beliefs, fine. But then don't get all weird about people questioning you about your religion.
I have answered the questions over and over so why answer them again? Why would it make any difference?

So far I have chosen to continue to be here but I put a prayer out to God tonight as to whether this is what I should be doing. I know and I am sure God knows I do not like talking about religion. I am not like some other Baha'is on this forum because religion has never been a subject of interest to me. There are so many other things I would rather be doing. I only remain a Baha'i because I believe the religion is true. As a Baha'i it is my first duty to recognize Baha'u'llah and do what I can to serve the Cause of God, but it is not my duty to convince other people the religion is true.

You are not questioning me about MY religion, you are questioning me about all the older religions and their scriptures.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So a man takes the title "Glory of God" and lo and behold, he just fulfilled a bunch of prophecies? Why didn't he call himself the "Lamb"? Anyway, in Revelation where do you see the description of the Lamb not being Jesus? Did Baha'u'llah ever refer to himself as the "Lamb of God" or the "Lamb that was slain"? As you might remember other Baha'is made the case for the Bab being the "Lamb that was slain". There reasoning.... Jesus was crucified, not slain. Whereas The Bab was shot.

Oh and the Glory of God and the Lamb seem like to different entities. And the "glory" seems to be describing why there is no need for the sun, because the "glory" or could it be the "light" radiating from God and the light from the Lamb are its light?
The verses says what they say. Baha’u’llah means Glory of God in Arabic and Baha'u'llah lighted the city, the New Jerusalem, but maybe the Lamb who lit the city was Jesus or the Bab, I don't really know.

Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Bab gave Baha'u'llah His title, the Glory of God.

Jesus was the Lamb of God but NOT the Lamb who would return in the latter days.
Nowhere, and I mean NOWHERE in the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was going to return to earth.
In fact, Jesus said His work was finished here and He was NO MORE in the world.

But I have already covered this so why go over it again? If Christians want to keep waiting for Jesus that is their choice and nobody can stop them, but they will be waiting till hell freezes over.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Earlier it said that the "angel of the Lord" appeared in the bush, then it says it is God. But then who is this "Holy Spirit"? Because Christians had the same problem... What is the difference between God and His Holy Spirit? Then what is the difference between God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus? So they made them all God.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. It is not God but it emanates from God.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate,it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You said you couldn't choose to disbelieve because you still believed, for example (which makes about as much sense as saying you can't choose to stand up because you're still sitting down...)

I believe the usual saying is that it does no good to close the barn door after the horse has escaped.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There are lots of prolific writers.

I'm not disputing that he was prolific. I am disputing the argument that Mr B being prolific is evidence that he was a messenger from God.

What would your criteria be? For me he isn't a messenger because what he says does not agree with what God says.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
What I meant was that I could not choose to disbelieve if I still believe. I would need a reason to relinquish my belief.

I would have to lose my faith in order to become a nonbeliever. I guess that was what happened to you some time ago, if you ever believed at all.

I believe in order to disbelieve, one must be willing to disbelieve. I do not believe you are.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
However, you are assuming that there IS a supernatural part of the world, inventing (whether you or others) a method of studying this thing you assume is there, and then when this method you've invented to study the supernatural shows that the supernatural is there, you take it as proof that your initial assumption about the existence of the supernatural was correct.
There's a lady I know who has this pendulum she holds in her hand and let's it dangle. When the spirit of her grandmother comes to visit, she asks her yes and no questions. If the pendulum goes around in circles, the answer is yes. If side to side, it is no. And I'd imagine there's lots of other ways people have invented to communicate with the spirit world. Is that proof it exists? I wouldn't be surprised if TB and other Baha'is say "no" that this is fake.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yeah, same old problems and they won't ever be resolved to your satisfaction.
But they have been resolved to your satisfaction? No, you've probably never asked those questions. But are there answers for those questions in the Baha'i writings?

You will always find problems so why bother to check anything?
Gee, I thought we were supposed to personally investigate the truth? If we don't seek, what will we find? But if we ask questions and there are no reasonable answers, what are we to think? That maybe the religion doesn't really have all the answers? Maybe just enough answers to satisfy some people? And maybe that's part of the problem why new religions grow fast at the beginning and then level off and just become one more religious movement added to the mix.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think the video made its point about the inaccuracy of the New Testament. What Bart Ehrman said applies to the whole NT, not just the resurrection stories. It is not accurate history in any manner shape or form.
Okay, it's not accurate history. So those things didn't really happen. So why believe any of those stories? You know, like the virgin birth and that Jesus is a manifestation of God? Oh yeah, because your leader says that part is true. And we can trust him, because he said the Holy Spirit told him... And God told the Holy Spirit. But Christians believe the Holy Spirit guided the writers of the NT... They must have been wrong, huh? And, "yes" is an acceptable answer. It's just it puts the Baha'i Faith in that awkward place of denying the validity of part of the NT and accepting part of it as true... And Baha'u'llah is the one that tells you which parts are true.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The decree to rebuild Jerusalem has nothing to do with the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination. This is history and fits very well into the "prophecy" in Daniel. Although, some say that Daniel might have been written during the time of some of these events and then made into a story that took place centuries before.

But believing this as the start of counting the days, instead of the decree in 457BC, blows the whole thing of getting to 1844. So I don't expect you to care or do any reading up on it... you know personal investigating truth rather than just believing what your religion tells you.

The prophet Daniel prophesied of an “abomination of desolation” (Daniel 11:31) within a long, detailed prophecy about the Greek kings who ruled over portions of the Greco-Macedonian empire after the death of Alexander the Great.

The kings of the North it focuses on (from Daniel 11:4-35) are known in history as rulers over the Seleucid Empire. They are named after one of Alexander’s generals, Seleucus I Nicator (approximately 358 to 281 B.C.), who emerged as one of the strongest generals after Alexander’s death. He ruled over a large swath of Alexander’s old empire that included the city of Babylon, Mesopotamia and central Asia (land generally to the north of Jerusalem).

Daniel’s prophecy of the “abomination of desolation” describes events that occurred in Jerusalem around 168/167 B.C. during the rule of the eighth Seleucid king, Antiochus IV. He is better known in history as Antiochus Epiphanes (Greek for “manifestation of god”).

Daniel’s prophecy described it this way: “Forces shall be mustered by him [Antiochus Epiphanes], and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation” (verse 31).

Antiochus Epiphanes was hostile to Jewish worship and attempted to Hellenize (or enforce the adoption of Greek culture and religion on) the Jews in Judea. He outlawed all forms of Jewish worship and placed a Hellenized high priest over the temple who was sympathetic to his rule. He eventually outlawed practices like circumcision, the biblical dietary laws and Sabbath observance.

While Antiochus was on a military campaign in Egypt in 168 B.C., a group of Jews revolted against the high priest that Antiochus had appointed and took control of Jerusalem. Antiochus returned to Jerusalem and violently put down the rebellion, killing thousands of Jews and selling others into slavery.

In 167 B.C. Antiochus erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus in the Jerusalem temple. He also ordered that swine, biblically unclean animals, be offered on the temple altar, desecrating the holy place (fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy). These acts were loathsome, abhorrent and detestable to the Jewish people and were the first fulfillment of the abomination of desolation.

The history of this tragic event in Jewish history, and the Maccabean revolt it inspired, are recorded in the noncanonical books of the Maccabees. These books give some useful history, though they aren’t considered part of the inspired Scripture.

It is all I will ever need to know because it has no bearing on present day reality and I don't have time to think about the past.
No bearing? You are possibly believing a false fulfillment of a major prophecy. When does it say the days start? It is with the stopping of the daily sacrifice and that thing about the abomination. There is a possible real event that fits that description. And we know when that was. But, for no reason, Baha'is start the counting of the days, that get turned into years, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC. Where do Baha'i get that from? How do Baha'is justify doing that? And why would they do that? Because they can make it end on the year The Bab declared himself in 1844. For Baha'is, a great year to end it. But it was not a good year to start counting from.

It has no "bearing" for you. You don't care. You don't want to do the research and personally investigate your beliefs any further than you've already done. Fine, you're happy, I guess, knowing and believing what you say that you "know" as true. Can't proof it. Don't want to look at anything that might show that some things said in the Baha'i Faith might be wrong. Yeah, that's a good way to stay confident that your religion is the truth.

Everything is instantly in the past. By the time you read this post, it is in the past. When you first studied the Baha'i Faith, it was all in the past. But, you know, you might be right. So what is the future of the Baha'i Faith. It has the answers supposedly. What are those answers and how are they going to be put into practice? There's going to be a united and peaceful world someday with a world government, how is that going to happen?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You are not questioning me about MY religion, you are questioning me about all the older religions and their scriptures.
Your religion has connected itself to all the other major religions by saying that it has been a progression... that your guy has fulfilled all the prophecies of those older religions... by saying that the spiritual teachings of all those religions hasn't changed, only some "social" teachings. It becomes obvious that Baha'i really don't believe in the Scriptures of the older religions, only parts of them, the ones that Baha'u'llah likes. I asked which Scriptures of Hinduism do Baha'is believe are for real. I could ask the same about Buddhism. Which Buddhist Scriptures do Baha'is say are authoritative? The answer is probably similar to what Baha'is do to they Bible, only parts are authoritative. The rest is not. So what is it? Man made junk? Baha'u'llah supposedly knew. What did he say? Oh, never mind, that's about another religions and it's in the past. So who cares.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Nowhere, and I mean NOWHERE in the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was going to return to earth.
I think there were a couple of places where it says Jesus will come back. But would it really matter? But where does it say that the "Lamb", in the last days, switches from being Jesus to Baha'u'llah? Plus, if Baha'u'llah is the "Glory" of God, how would he also be the "Lamb"? And, why do some Muslims believe that Jesus will return?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And you know this how?
God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But they have been resolved to your satisfaction? No, you've probably never asked those questions. But are there answers for those questions in the Baha'i writings?
No, I did not ask those questions because I don't need the answers to them. No, the answers are not in the Baha'i Writings because the Baha'i Writings are a NEW Revelation from God. If you need the answers about older religions then you will have to go looking for them.
Gee, I thought we were supposed to personally investigate the truth? If we don't seek, what will we find? But if we ask questions and there are no reasonable answers, what are we to think? That maybe the religion doesn't really have all the answers? Maybe just enough answers to satisfy some people? And maybe that's part of the problem why new religions grow fast at the beginning and then level off and just become one more religious movement added to the mix.
Everybody investigates differently and everyone does not have the same questions they need answers to. What is reasonable to one person is not reasonable to another person because we all think differently. I know a Baha'i who only read one page of the Writings of Baha'u'llah and then he became a Baha'i and he is still a Baha'i 60 years later. People are all different. What you need to believe is not what others need. I do not see that as a problem.

I never claimed that the Baha'i Faith has 'all the answers.' Only God has all the answers and they are not all revealed at the same time. There will be more truth revealed in the future.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Okay, it's not accurate history. So those things didn't really happen. So why believe any of those stories? You know, like the virgin birth and that Jesus is a manifestation of God? Oh yeah, because your leader says that part is true. And we can trust him, because he said the Holy Spirit told him...
That's right, that is why I believe what I believe but since you are not a Baha'i you don't believe it. I can trust Baha'u'llah but I don't expect you to trust Him because you are not a Baha'i.
 
Top