Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[TransmutingSoul]

Again... The question is... When did the daily sacrifice get stopped and the abomination get set up? There is a historical event that fits very well. What does that refer to? If you want to use 457BC as the starting date how does the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the abomination fit in?

I do not need to use it CG. If you do need clarification, I would still suggest you research what did William Miller and others have offered?

A couple of links.

Establishing the date 457 B.C

Abomination (Judaism) - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Set myself up for what? Of course Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies of the older religions that were revealed in the Age of Prophecy, but we are now living in the Age of Fulfillment so the connection is no longer necessary.

In this page a links to other pages concentrating on prophecies contained in some of the major Religious and Spiritual traditions of the World. Also I have included some predictions of Nostradamus and there is an article on 2012 which is the special date when the Mayan calendar comes to an end. In each section I give some background to the prophecies from the respective World Religions and also discuss some of their social and political implications.

1./ Jewish Prophecies and Messianic Expectation

2./ Christian Prophecies and the Second Coming of Christ

3./ Muslim Prophecies and the Appearance of Imam Mahdi

4./ Hindu Prophecies and the Incarnation of the Kalki Avatar

5./ Buddhist Prophecies and the Coming of Maitraya

6./ Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant

7./ Prophecies of Nostradamus

8./ Native American Prophecies

9./ Norse Prophecies

10./ 2012 and the end of the Mayan Calendar

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah.

For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.

Members of the Baha'i Faith believe that in the middle of the last century these prophecies actually were fulfilled and that the Promised One truly did appear.

Baha'u'llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, claims to be the Promised One whose coming was explicitly foretold, not only in the Old and the New Testaments.... but also in the prophecies of the Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Islamic and other religions.

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

I looked at one and sorry, but there was already a problem. "He will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent brahmin of Sambhala village, endowed with the eight superhuman facilities. By his irresistable might he will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity.

And who's web page is that? And that other one? Robert Riggs? Like I suppose what he says is the official Baha'i position? So if you keep saying that all the prophecies have been fulfilled, I'll keep asking how? Like with just that one. Where is this village of Shambhala? And if Kalki is Baha'u'llah who is The Bab?

But don't concern yourself with an answer, because I know you don't know and... don't care. Just keep playing your game of saying things that sound a lot like claims but then asked for proof and evidence you get all upset. So why not just stop saying things that cause people to challenge you and ask you questions that you can't answer?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not need to use it CG. If you do need clarification, I would still suggest you research what did William Miller and others have offered?

A couple of links.

Establishing the date 457 B.C

Abomination (Judaism) - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."​

But if you want to believe 7th Day Adventists and Abdul Baha go ahead. But it seems pretty plain to me that this one and at least one other one says that the starting point is when the daily sacrifice was stopped and the abomination that causes desolation was set up. That's something you can look up if you want. Here's one...

The Literal Fulfillment of the Abomination that Causes Desolation: The Abomination that Causes Desolation is the Greek and Roman Armies with their Idols to Foreign Gods that Caused the Desolation of Israel.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."​

But if you want to believe 7th Day Adventists and Abdul Baha go ahead. But it seems pretty plain to me that this one and at least one other one says that the starting point is when the daily sacrifice was stopped and the abomination that causes desolation was set up. That's something you can look up if you want. Here's one...

The Literal Fulfillment of the Abomination that Causes Desolation: The Abomination that Causes Desolation is the Greek and Roman Armies with their Idols to Foreign Gods that Caused the Desolation of Israel.​

OK, you go with what you wish CG, I do not need to pursue any further clarification other than what William Miller and Abdu'lbaha have provided, nor look in them in another way. I see William Miller was correct and had found out what these verses were saying and Abdu'lbaha confirmed he did get it right. That is because the Bab and Baha'u'llah stand on their own Messages.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I looked at one and sorry, but there was already a problem. "He will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent brahmin of Sambhala village, endowed with the eight superhuman facilities. By his irresistable might he will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity.

Of course there was a problem, prophecies will always be a problem for you. However, just because that a so-called prophecy says that that does not mean it is a genuine prophecy. Who wrote it, Krishna? No. Rather someone wrote it to say what the Hindus want it to say. Obviously, a Hindu would write prophecy like that because he would want to the Messiah to fulfill his wants and needs, just like the Jews believe that the Messiah will be what they envision him to be which is what they want him to be. The same goes for the Buddhists and the Christians. But logically speaking, the real Messiah, if he is the promised one of ALL the religions, cannot be all things to all religious people. This is logic 101 stuff.

If you cannot understand this basic logic and human psychology then you will continue spinning your wheels for the rest of your life, wondering why the prophecies just don't add up. This is why Abdu'l-Baha said that prophecies are the not the best proof of the claims of Baha'u'llah and why Baha'u'llah never suggested we look at the prophecies to prove who He was. Jesus never suggested that was the proof of His station either. The Person of Jesus and what He accomplished on His mission from God is the proof of who He was and the same goes for Baha'u'llah.

And who's web page is that? And that other one? Robert Riggs? Like I suppose what he says is the official Baha'i position? So if you keep saying that all the prophecies have been fulfilled, I'll keep asking how? Like with just that one. Where is this village of Shambhala? And if Kalki is Baha'u'llah who is The Bab?

Who ever said that these are legitimate prophecies? I did not even know what was on that website. I only posted it because you asked for prophecies. Now I know I made a mistake because you just have more to question. A prophecy is only as accurate as its source. Those older religions might think they have an accurate source but that does not mean that they do. I would trust the Bible more than the so-called Buddhist or Hindu scriptures.

But don't concern yourself with an answer, because I know you don't know and... don't care. Just keep playing your game of saying things that sound a lot like claims but then asked for proof and evidence you get all upset.

I have told you what the evidence is numerous times, but the only evidence you will accept is the fulfillment of the prophecies and you will not accept how Baha'u'llah fulfilled them as delineated by Sears even though it is spot on. I cannot change your mind and it is not my responsibility to do so. If you want to question everything I and the other Baha'is say for the rest of your life that is your choice. You act as if that is some kind of badge of honor to continue questioning, but if you never come to a decision and time runs out you will be the one who suffers.

No, I don't know and I don't care because I see the complete futility of trying to use prophecies in order to determine who the Messiah was or will be. Prophecies can only be used in retrospect, when one knows who the Messiah actually was. Thus all they do is confirm what we already know from the other evidence. It's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess its nature beforehand.

So why not just stop saying things that cause people to challenge you and ask you questions that you can't answer?

I do not say those things. I just respond to what other people say when they ask for evidence with what I believe is the evidence. Nobody likes the real evidence so they just keep asking for something else. That is not my problem, that is their problem.

 

[ratiocinator]

The claims of Baha'u'llah and the evidence that supports the claims are delineated in the following post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

I see not no evidence in that post. Making bold claims is not evidence that they are true. Written words are not, and can not be, evidence of their truth - you need independent, objective evidence to back them up.

No, what I posted was not a scripture of Baha'u'llah, it was a Baha'u'llah quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, which is a history of the early days of the Bahai Faith.

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

Makes not the slightest bit of difference. You are quoting texts you believe to justify that belief because the texts say so.

I know because of the evidence.

What evidence? Texts cannot be evidence, as I said above.

 

[CG Didymus]

OK, you go with what you wish CG, I do not need to pursue any further clarification other than what William Miller and Abdu'lbaha have provided, nor look in them in another way. I see William Miller was correct and had found out what these verses were saying and Abdu'lbaha confirmed he did get it right. That is because the Bab and Baha'u'llah stand on their own Messages.

Regards Tony

So much for investigating the truth. Again, Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."

All you have to do is read what the verse says. But you can't can you. You know I'd expect that from Fundamental Christians. They say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." But Baha'is are just as bad. "If that's what the Baha'i writings say, then that is the truth and that is what I believe." What is sad is that you probably would hope that those Fundy Christians would look at things with more of an open mind, but do Baha'is? I hope some do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So much for investigating the truth. Again, Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."

All you have to do is read what the verse says. But you can't can you. You know I'd expect that from Fundamental Christians. They say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." But Baha'is are just as bad. "If that's what the Baha'i writings say, then that is the truth and that is what I believe." What is sad is that you probably would hope that those Fundy Christians would look at things with more of an open mind, but do Baha'is? I hope some do.

That is independent search CG, you do it as you see you need to. How you need to do it, was not the way I needed to.

I can not answer your questions in any other way than I have.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not say those things.

You mean things like Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies? Gee, I thought that was you. Sorry, I must have been mistaken.

f course there was a problem, prophecies will always be a problem for you.

You posted the link. Was Baha'u'llah from Shambala? Apparently, since you say he fulfilled the prophecies. Why thrown these things out there if you don't want to discuss and answer questions about them?

 

[Trailblazer]

I see not no evidence in that post. Making bold claims is not evidence that they are true. Written words are not, and can not be, evidence of their truth - you need independent, objective evidence to back them up.

The evidence was delineated in that post. The scriptures are only part of the evidence but one needs to read written words in order to know what the rest of the evidence is. There is objective evidence, the history that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, including facts about His Person.

Makes not the slightest bit of difference. You are quoting texts you believe to justify that belief because the texts say so.

No, that is not what I am doing, believing that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because the texts say Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, because that would be circular reasoning. The only way anyone can learn anything is by doing the research which entails reading, unless you want to take someone else's word for things.

What evidence? Texts cannot be evidence, as I said above.

I did not say that the texts are the evidence but you have to read the texts to know what the evidence is because you cannot go back in time and be there back in the 19th century when Baha'u'llah walked the earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean things like Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies? Gee, I thought that was you. Sorry, I must have been mistaken.

You said: So why not just stop saying things that cause people to challenge you and ask you questions that you can't answer?
I said: I do not say those things.

And I don't. I just respond to what others say. If they ask me if Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies I say yes.

You posted the link. Was Baha'u'llah from Shambala? Apparently, since you say he fulfilled the prophecies. Why thrown these things out there if you don't want to discuss and answer questions about them?

You asked for some prophecies and I sent you a link. That does not mean I want to discuss the prophecies on the websites or that I am obligated to do so. It is not my job to go through all the prophecies with you, that is your job.

 

[ratiocinator]

The evidence was delineated in that post. The scriptures are only part of the evidence but one needs to read written words in order to know what the rest of the evidence is. There is objective evidence, the history that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, including facts about His Person.

The other things you mentioned in the post were "his own self" (character and qualities) which also isn't objective evidence, "his revelation" which leads us right back to the text, which isn't objective evidence, and the words he revealed, ditto.

The only thing that might be objective evidence is actual fulfilled prophecy, but I've looked at so many supposed instances of this claimed by many faiths to know that's highly unlikely to be convincing. They are always vague, written after the events, rather obvious, or have some other obvious problem. If there were any really precise and convincing examples, everybody would know about them and it would also totally undermine your previous claims that people have to do work to find god and its message (making god unjust and unfair).

 

[Subduction Zone]

The evidence was delineated in that post. The scriptures are only part of the evidence but one needs to read written words in order to know what the rest of the evidence is. There is objective evidence, the history that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, including facts about His Person.

No, that is not what I am doing, believing that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because the texts say Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, because that would be circular reasoning. The only way anyone can learn anything is by doing the research which entails reading, unless you want to take someone else's word for things.

I did not say that the texts are the evidence but you have to read the texts to know what the evidence is because you cannot go back in time and be there back in the 19th century when Baha'u'llah walked the earth.

We have been over how the prophesies of Baha'u'llah as the prophesies of all religions fail. And the scripture is the claim it is not the evidence unless you have quite a bit more solid than "it makes me feel good". The same rules that apply to Christian prophesies apply to any religion. Overly vague prophecies are failures as far as prophesy goes if you want to use it as "evidence" because there are often numerous ways that it could be "fulfilled".

 

[samtonga43]

Thanks. I know others have called my beliefs (or how I came to believe them) irrational at times but they normally do not call me irrational. There is a difference. Anyone who calls my beliefs (or how I came to believe them) irrational should say why they think that so I can understand and reply.

I believe many of us have done just that.

They might still think my beliefs (or how I came to believe them) irrational, they probably will, because believers and atheists are wired very differently

I am not an atheist.

Imo, that is a selfish reason not to judge others

Now who's judging?

but the primary reason I do not accept that interpretation is because meaning was assigned without looking at the context.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

You misunderstand the meaning of 'context'. Verses 3, 4 and 5 serve as an extra illustration of the main point. They do not alter the main point in any way, so the main point is not out of context .

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Baha'u'llah wrote, only Jesus was nicer in how He said it.

Yes, it certainly is interesting, considering that Jesus spoke these words 2000 years earlier. Hmmm…………

 

[CG Didymus]

It's called the ideomotor effect, and it means nothing. Ideomotor phenomenon - Wikipedia

It's things like that and seeing ghosts or visions of angels that give some people "proof" of a spirit world. Even Baha'is have their visions of Abdul Baha'... And why not The Bab or Baha'u'llah? I don't know.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have been over how the prophesies of Baha'u'llah as the prophesies of all religions fail. And the scripture is the claim it is not the evidence unless you have quite a bit more solid than "it makes me feel good". The same rules that apply to Christian prophesies apply to any religion. Overly vague prophecies are failures as far as prophesy goes if you want to use it as "evidence" because there are often numerous ways that it could be "fulfilled".

And TB agrees with that. She makes the claim, that she says is not a claim but a belief, that all the prophecies of every religion has been fulfilled. All of them have something wrong with them. So then she says that the prophecies don't prove anything.

But prophecies, it seems, were given to be the very things that we could use to verify if someone was the Messiah or whoever. I bring up verses in Revelation that make it sound like the world is in all sorts of trouble, when out of the blue comes Jesus to save the day. And what does he do? He gets rid of all the unbelieving evil people. I don't think that the things happening in the world in the mid-1800's were as bad as they are now. But that's when they say not one, but two, manifestations came. Then things got worse. And they're still getting worse. And the biggest prophecy, that the Messiah will bring peace, is still not fulfilled.

I think it would be great if there was an all-knowing, all-loving God that sent his messengers to Earth to help straighten things out, but so many times, for all the good things that happens, the new religion makes a lot of things worse. And since people are the ones running the Baha'i Faith, people that seem totality committed to believing everything their religion tells them, I think there is a good possibility that an overly authoritarian rule of religious laws could happen. Fortunately, they are so bad at presenting their religion, that not too many people join. Even cults know enough to shower a person with love and to give them a flower before they try and brainwash them.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, the only scripture that is infallible and inerrant is the scripture written by a Manifestation of God.

That eliminates all scriptures except what was written by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

So no other religion has reliable Scriptures except the Baha'is,... Interesting.

If they ask me if Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies I say yes.

So you say, "Yes, he fulfilled them." Okay, so a person may show you a prophecy and ask, "What about this one?" And you say, "That's not my job"?

You asked for some prophecies and I sent you a link. That does not mean I want to discuss the prophecies on the websites or that I am obligated to do so. It is not my job to go through all the prophecies with you, that is your job.

I showed you just one or two sentences from the prophecies about Kalki. How do they fit? How were they fulfilled? You'd think, since you and other Baha'is say they have been fulfilled that you'd know how. But you don't. And you don't seem to want to know. You are satisfied staying in your ignorance. So again I ask, why keep saying that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled anything?

By saying he has fulfilled the prophecies of all the past religions, it is you that brings those past religions into the conversation. But you don't want to discuss them. You download some person's webpage that happens to have a bunch of prophecies from the other religions and call that good? Did you read any of them? Did you check to see if Baha'u'llah fulfilled them? It doesn't sound like it.

This thread should be called "Try and unconvince me of your religion" 'Cause some Baha'is do a much better job pushing people away then drawing them in.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And TB agrees with that. She makes the claim, that she says is not a claim but a belief, that all the prophecies of every religion has been fulfilled. All of them have something wrong with them. So then she says that the prophecies don't prove anything.

But prophecies, it seems, were given to be the very things that we could use to verify if someone was the Messiah or whoever. I bring up verses in Revelation that make it sound like the world is in all sorts of trouble, when out of the blue comes Jesus to save the day. And what does he do? He gets rid of all the unbelieving evil people. I don't think that the things happening in the world in the mid-1800's were as bad as they are now. But that's when they say not one, but two, manifestations came. Then things got worse. And they're still getting worse. And the biggest prophecy, that the Messiah will bring peace, is still not fulfilled.

I think it would be great if there was an all-knowing, all-loving God that sent his messengers to Earth to help straighten things out, but so many times, for all the good things that happens, the new religion makes a lot of things worse. And since people are the ones running the Baha'i Faith, people that seem totality committed to believing everything their religion tells them, I think there is a good possibility that an overly authoritarian rule of religious laws could happen. Fortunately, they are so bad at presenting their religion, that not too many people join. Even cults know enough to shower a person with love and to give them a flower before they try and brainwash them.

My problem with her claim is that she stated that her scripture alone is inerrant, but when it came to supporting that claim she had nothing. And I do believe that in the past she did try to pull the prophecy card.

 

[CG Didymus]

Really? How do you test your scripture? Most theists do not know how to do so.

Before I became skeptical of everything religious people told me, I took them at their word. They'd show me in the Bible, or in the Book of Mormon, or in the Bhagavad Gita or the Baha'i writings what the "truth" was. Right there, it was clear that each one had a different version of what they thought the "truth" was. I think a lot of people just take too much of what they are told and what they read for granted. Like if a they already assume their is a God, then the person telling them about their religious beliefs has a place to start and build on. If the religious person is a Christian, then from God all they need to "prove" is that Jesus is the "Word of God" and that he "died for their sins" and all that.

Baha'is would only have to show how this God had sent many messengers, not just one or two. They'd go on say how this loving God sent messengers to everybody. But because all people were different, the message varied and was geared toward those people at that time. Then, a different people, at a different time got a different customized message. But, part of that message always foretold about a great unifier... someone whom God would send at the end times that would bring all the world together in love and peace.

And who wouldn't want a loving, peaceful world? Or, if listening to a Christian, who wouldn't want to be "saved" and have their sins forgiven? But, for a lot of us, we've heard all these contradictory stories about God, Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and everybody else. And we know that some religious people are scammers. They get you into some cult and use you. It is good to be skeptical. And it's good to ask the hard questions. And if the religious person can't answer them? If they can't show proof of the claims their religion makes? Then it would be stupid to trust them.

Sure, they believe it. Of course they can feel it in their hearts. Yes, they've come to trust everything their religion teaches and have found that all of is true. Yet, with each religion, all those "true" things are different. Most all religions are going to help people be better. But we know, even in major religions, that we don't consider to be cults, there are lots of problems with child abuse, embezzlement, adultery, and people saying things but not living up to those things themselves.

Baha'is say they have proof and evidence. They say they have personally investigated the truth and found that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. But then when questioned, all that "proof" vanishes. All that's left is that they "believe". They take it on "Faith". And that they "know" it's true." So, just like those preachers on TV that say, "Come on. What do you have to lose. Jesus is here to change your life. Take that step of faith. For he said that whoever knocks the door will be open!" Is it real? It becomes real.

And I believe it does become very real for Baha'is. And part of what a good Baha'is is supposed to do? Go spread the word. Tell others the good news... the promised one has come! So then they tell you the details. They tell you the claims. They tell you the great plan for peace. Then comes the questions. No answers, Weak answers, Circular answers, and then come the complaints, "Why are you asking the same questions over and over? We already answered them." The Baha'i Faith? Does it really seem like they got their stuff together and all their ducks lined up?

I appreciate you being here and asking questions. I always learn from what others have to say. You, Tiberius, Samtonga43 and the others have been great.

 

[CG Didymus]

My problem with her claim is that she stated that her scripture alone is inerrant, but when it came to supporting that claim she had nothing. And I do believe that in the past she did try to pull the prophecy card.

Yeah, she pulls that back right away. But the prophecies all come from those Scriptures that are all full of errors, so how can any Baha'i really use them? And what is funny, is the Baha'is supported the Christians in using one out of context verse in Isaiah to show that Jesus was born from a virgin? Then they turn around and say how Christians have misinterpreted all sorts of things. It's hard to trust any of them. Yet, I'd almost like to believe in some spiritual reality, but they make it virtually impossible for me to believe in what they say.