Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[ratiocinator]

How do you define objective evidence?

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

What does objective evidence mean?

According to this definition there is evidence for Baha’u’llah because one can examine and evaluate the evidence for Baha’u’llah

Yet again: it may be objective evidence for something about him but none of it is evidence that his claims were true. For example, evidence that he meets your entirely subjective criteria, is not evidence that his god claims are true.

Whether it is true or not is for each person to determine by looking at the evidence, if they want to know if it is true.

This will be the objective evidence you have still failed to produce?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why is it 'unfortunate' for people who deny this?

Because recognition of Baha'u'llah would offer them perfect constancy and deliver them from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable them to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next.

“Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings.” Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. 87 Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.

Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor.

Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honor to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 86-87

 

[Trailblazer]

What a surprise!

Do you mean that God would not answer A's prayer that his rival B. would fall into the lions' cage at the zoo and be torn to pieces?

No, that is not what I meant. I meant what I said, that God only answers prayers that He chooses to answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

And there it is.

Yes indeed, there it is. I do not have time to waste trying to understand things that don't matter.
I also don't have time to hash over things that have already been beaten to death.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why? Because he had deluded himself into believing that he was a 'Messenger of God'.

Got any evidence to back that up? Otherwise it is nothing but a bald assertion.

What is "bald assertion?" Well the name says it all, doesn't it? It's stating something without backing it up.

Logical Fallacy Lesson 4: Bald Assertion | Rational Response Squad

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet again: it may be objective evidence for something about him but none of it is evidence that his claims were true. For example, evidence that he meets your entirely subjective criteria, is not evidence that his god claims are true.

Those are my criteria and they are objective criteria because they are criteria that can be examined and evaluated.

Again, it is evidence but it is not proof. Evidence is not proof.
There is no proof that any God claims are true, we can only prove that to ourselves.

This will be the objective evidence you have still failed to produce?

I produced it, you just don't like it. I cannot do anything about what you don't like.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some food for thought regarding the efficacy of prayers, a group e-mail to all the Baha'is in my Baha'i community:

Dear friends,

Thank you so much for your prayers during my recent hospitalization. There is no doubt in my mind that your prayers helped me tremendously! The doctor in charge was amazed at how quickly I improved.

The doctors haven’t determined exactly what caused my lungs to fill up with fluid, and this is causing me some anxiety. Gasping for air, knowing that I was dying was extremely distressing and I would rather not repeat the experience!

All of this has been quite upsetting and stressful for John — please remember him in your prayers.

Thanks again for your prayers and support. I feel so blessed to live in this incredibly loving and supportive community!

With much love,
Christina

 

[ratiocinator]

Those are my criteria and they are objective criteria because they are criteria that can be examined and evaluated.

Yes you can evaluate them (well, except number 2, you can't actually know what the person believed, only what they said they believed) but it's entirely your subjective opinion that they indicate the truth of the person's claims. You have provided no objective connection between any of your evidence and criteria and the actual truth of the god claims.

I produced it, you just don't like it.

No you haven't produced objective evidence of the god-claims. To the extent what you say is objective, it is not evidence of the truth of the god-claims, and to the extent it connects to the god-claims, it is not objective.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes you can evaluate them (well, except number 2, you can't actually know what the person believed, only what they said they believed) but it's entirely your subjective opinion that they indicate the truth of the person's claims. You have provided no objective connection between any of your evidence and criteria and the actual truth of the god claims.

We can know what Baha'u'llah believed from what He wrote.

Yes, it's my subjective opinion that MY criteria indicate the truth of the person's claims.
What would be an objective connection between my evidence and criteria and the actual truth of the God claims?

No you haven't produced objective evidence of the god-claims. To the extent what you say is objective, it is not evidence of the truth of the god-claims, and to the extent it connects to the god-claims, it is not objective.

It is objective evidence evidence of the truth of the God-claims according to the definition because the following can be examined and evaluated:

1. The character of Baha'u'llah
2. The life of Baha'u'llah
3. The mission of Baha'u'llah (the history)
4. The Writings of Baha'u'llah

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

What does objective evidence mean?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What a surprise!

Do you mean that God would not answer A's prayer that his rival B. would fall into the lions' cage at the zoo and be torn to pieces?

That is a question many ask and it has been answered, this is one of those answers.

"God will answer the prayer of every servant if that prayer is urgent. His mercy is vast, illimitable. He answers the prayers of all His servants...
But we ask for things which the divine wisdom does not desire for us, and there is no answer to our prayer. His wisdom does not sanction what we wish. We pray, “O God! Make me wealthy!” If this prayer were universally answered, human affairs would be at a standstill. There would be none left to work in the streets, none to till the soil, none to build, none to run the trains. Therefore, it is evident that it would not be well for us if all prayers were answered. The affairs of the world would be interfered with, energies crippled and progress hindered. But whatever we ask for which is in accord with divine wisdom, God will answer. Assuredly!
For instance, a very feeble patient may ask the doctor to give him food which would be positively dangerous to his life and condition. He may beg for roast meat. The doctor is kind and wise. He knows it would be dangerous to his patient so he refuses to allow it. The doctor is merciful; the patient, ignorant. Through the doctor’s kindness the patient recovers; his life is saved. Yet the patient may cry out that the doctor is unkind, not good, because he refuses to answer his pleading.
God is merciful. In His mercy He answers the prayers of all His servants when according to His supreme wisdom it is necessary." - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá; The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 5 August 1912, Talk at Dublin Inn, Dublin, New Hampshire

Prayer has a purpose, it is to help us know and Love God, and to allow for God's Will, grace and bounty to unfold, and not our own desires.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

Tests that can refute one's ideas are seen as much stronger than tests that only support confirmation bias. And how was my generalization rash?

Would you understand if I said ‘hasty’? You say hasty; we say rash. But it’s the same error. Re-read the bold.

But back to testing, A test that is based upon the merits of one's beliefs that could possibly refute it shows that one does not have only irrational belief and is willing to think of ways that one could be wrong.

Sorry, but this sentence is as convoluted as a walnut shell. Can you please unravel it, and make it simple, because I am not as smart as you are.

For example an improper test that would not refute anything would be on the order of "If monkeys fly out of my butt I am wrong".

I see. Yes, that would be improper.
What about if I say, “If SZ says I am wrong, I am probably right.” Would this be proper?

The problem with such an extreme test like this is that it is all but impossible for monkeys to fly out of one's butt even if one has been ODing on bananas and binge watching The Wizard of Oz.

Right. All but impossible.

And it is up to the person with the belief to generate a proper test. They often try to pass the buck, but any test proposed by someone else would almost certainly be rejected by the person with the belief as a "strawman" even though technically it is not.

Oh, I don’t think I would reject it as a strawman, (unless it was technically a strawman).
Go on, SZ - do a 'proper' test! Believe in yourself-- you can do this!

 

[samtonga43]

That is a question many ask and it has been answered, this is one of those answers.

"God will answer the prayer of every servant if that prayer is urgent. His mercy is vast, illimitable. He answers the prayers of all His servants...
But we ask for things which the divine wisdom does not desire for us, and there is no answer to our prayer. His wisdom does not sanction what we wish. We pray, “O God! Make me wealthy!” If this prayer were universally answered, human affairs would be at a standstill. There would be none left to work in the streets, none to till the soil, none to build, none to run the trains. Therefore, it is evident that it would not be well for us if all prayers were answered. The affairs of the world would be interfered with, energies crippled and progress hindered. But whatever we ask for which is in accord with divine wisdom, God will answer. Assuredly!
For instance, a very feeble patient may ask the doctor to give him food which would be positively dangerous to his life and condition. He may beg for roast meat. The doctor is kind and wise. He knows it would be dangerous to his patient so he refuses to allow it. The doctor is merciful; the patient, ignorant. Through the doctor’s kindness the patient recovers; his life is saved. Yet the patient may cry out that the doctor is unkind, not good, because he refuses to answer his pleading.
God is merciful. In His mercy He answers the prayers of all His servants when according to His supreme wisdom it is necessary." - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá; The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 5 August 1912, Talk at Dublin Inn, Dublin, New Hampshire

Prayer has a purpose, it is to help us know and Love God, and to allow for God's Will, grace and bounty to unfold, and nit our own desires.

Regards Tony

And I would add; be careful when you pray - you will have to play your part in His answer, or lack of it.

 

[samtonga43]

Those are my criteria and they are objective criteria because they are criteria that can be examined and evaluated.

Again, it is evidence but it is not proof. Evidence is not proof.
There is no proof that any God claims are true, we can only prove that to ourselves.

I produced it, you just don't like it. I cannot do anything about what you don't like.

You have produced objective evidence? Where? I have to see this!!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Would you understand if I said ‘hasty’? You say hasty; we say rash. But it’s the same error. Re-read the bold.

Then let me qualify it, I have yet to see one theist willing to do so.

Sorry, but this sentence is as convoluted as a walnut shell. Can you please unravel it, and make it simple, because I am not as smart as you are.

I guess so. It is hardly convoluted. The tests that I always see proposed by theists only lead to confirmation bias at best. They try to form a test that they know that they will pass. Or one that they can at least try to claim that they passed. Ideas often are testable in a manner that would show if they were wrong. For example in evolution a horse with feathers would be an insurmountable problem since feather evolved in a different line after the split between the lines that led to horses and the line that led to dinosaurs. In evolution that would be a failures of phylogeny and it can be tested in many different ways. That sort of test allows a person to claim to have evidence in the scientist. One cannot even claim to have evidence if one's idea is not falsifiable. Tests that involve falsifiability are generally much stronger than just confirmation bias.

For an example of confirmation bias she uses the prophecy of a trip. The problem with that sort of prophecy fails on more than one level. First others could have made the same trip. Second he was actively going after that goal. It would be like calling JFK a "Messenger from God" since he predicted the Moon landing. Rather emphatically. Of course he started the program that led to that.

Weak tests do not provide reliable evidence. Strong tests do.

I see. Yes, that would be improper.
What about if I say, “If SZ says I am wrong, I am probably right.” Would this be proper?

That would be very improper. Think about it.

Right. All but impossible.


Oh, I don’t think I would reject it as a strawman, (unless it was technically a strawman).
Go on, SZ - do a 'proper' test! Believe in yourself-- you can do this!

Sorry, another reason I won't do this is because there is a limit to the work that I will do for other people for free. Are you willing to pay me? I will need the money up front. I lack "faith" in those on the internet. I am sure that if theists were willing to pay for such a test that others would do that for them. I don't see them opening up their checkbooks very soon.

 

[samtonga43]

Because recognition of Baha'u'llah would offer them perfect constancy and deliver them from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable them to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next.

What do the bolded words mean in the language of today?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I would add; be careful when you pray - you will have to play your part in His answer, or lack of it.

I see that is the essence of prayer. That is also the essence of Faith, when one says they believe, do they think they will not be tested?

I can look back and see how prayer has shaped my life, the bounty of prayer, but it is hard to see it in the moment, though many times the moment has produced some very astonishing quick faith solutions.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You have produced objective evidence? Where? I have to see this!!!

I have posted it numerous times.

The following evidence (1-4) is objective evidence according to the definition because it can be examined and evaluated:

1. The character of Baha'u'llah
2. The life of Baha'u'llah
3. The mission of Baha'u'llah (the history)
4. The Writings of Baha'u'llah

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

What does objective evidence mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

What do the bolded words mean in the language of today?

Do you mean what is salvation? That is a BIG question. Suffice to say that there are some similarities and differences between what the Baha'i Faith and Christianity teaches regarding salvation.

Below are some excerpts from a long article on Salvation:

(2) Bahá'u'lláh as the Harbinger of Universal Salvation

The Bahá'í Faith can on good grounds be identified as a religion of salvation, and its Founder, Bahá'u'lláh (1817-1892), be considered, in Max Weber's word, as a Heilbringer (Bearer of salvation). (Sociology of Religion 46). Bahá'u'lláh has asserted His claim to be the harbinger of universal salvation and the fulfillment of the age-old messianic promises of a universal peace, when "the kindly earth shall slumber, lapt in universal law" (Tennyson "Locksley Hall") and the earth "....be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9) It is through this eschatological language of the fulfillment of the times that we sense most strongly the salvific claims of Bahá'u'lláh to be the Promised One of all ages:

The Revelation which, from time immemorial, hath been acclaimed as the Purpose and Promise of all the Prophets of God, and the most cherished Desire of His Messengers, hath now, by virtue of the pervasive Will of the Almighty and at His irresistible bidding, been revealed unto men. The advent of such a Revelation hath been heralded in all the sacred scriptures.

(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh 156)

(3) Individual Salvation in the Bahá'í Faith

The basic meaning of individual salvation for a Bahá'í would be when the individual soul has faith ("conscious knowledge") in Bahá'u'lláh. This conscious knowledge includes the recognition of Bahá'u'lláh's station as the Divine Manifestation of God for our age, as well the practice of goodly deeds, deeds which are based on the observance of His teachings and laws in a spirit of love and sincerity for God, His Manifestation, and humankind. The knowledge of God is fundamental in the Bahá'í view to the process of salvation for `Abdu'l-Bahá states: "...that which is the cause of everlasting life, eternal honour, universal enlightenment, real salvation and prosperity is, first of all, the knowledge of God." (Some Answered Questions 300)

Salvation for a Bahá'í also means that the destiny of the individual human soul, both in this life and in the life beyond is secure and felicitous. The individual believer need never fear his own extinction, for the corollary of salvation is everlasting life. Bahá'u'lláh affirms the existence of paradise, (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh 189) a condition that is promised to the faithful and righteous soul ……

The Bahá'í Faith affirms further that man is not able, through his own unaided efforts, either individually or collectively, to attain to the means of his own salvation. He is in need of tutelage. In the Bahá'í perspective, this tutelage is offered to a superlative degree in the lives and writings of the Prophets ......

The faith of Bahá'u'lláh would, however, share the outlook of St. Thomas Aquinas that man stands in need of an intermediary to bring him into relationship with God. Aquinas wrote: "Strictly speaking, a mediator is one who joins together and unites those between whom he mediates; for extremes are united in the mean." (Summa Theologica, 111, question 26, a.1, c in An Aquinas Reader, 468) ......

While a Bahá'í may be confident in the salvation of his soul, the Bahá'í Faith warns against self-righteousness. There is nothing automatic in the process of salvation, even for the one who has lived righteously. All our acts, the Bahá'í Faith affirms, are conditioned upon the good-pleasure of God. Believers can and do change. The most ardent believer can sometimes grow cold. On the other hand, the non-believer who was once most contemptuous of God, can become steadfast in faith

(4) Universal Salvation in the Bahá'í Faith

Bahá'u'lláh's stated aim is not the salvation of an elitist group but that of the entire world whereby every soul on the planet will experience the bounty of knowing God's revelation: “I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” (Gleanings 243) It is also worth mentioning in this context that the Bahá'í Faith eschews the dichotomous saved/damned, chosen/rejected, people of truth /people of the lie mentality that we find in some religions. On the contrary "...all human beings are the sheep of God and He is the kind Shepherd. This Shepherd is kind to all the sheep, because He created them all..." (Selections From the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá 298).

The Bahá'í Faith views societal reconstruction as a consequence of personal salvation. The process of salvation works in what may be described as a two-way circular process: the regenerated individual reacts on the world. As the world changes, it creates a more favourable spiritual environment to react on the individual, and so on. Bahá'u'lláh is viewed by Bahá'ís as the Chief Architect of universal salvation. The world-wide community is to be rescued from its sorry state through the laws and administration designed by Bahá'u'lláh, a wonderous system called the new world order of Bahá'u'lláh which is moreoever the concrete embodiment of all of Bahá'u'lláh's teachings and His unique form of community government on the local, national and international levels.

Read more: Salvation

 

[Tiberius]

Nice try but I have no position.

You said you prayer, so you obviously believe that prayer does something.

Thus, your position is that prayer has some effect.

 

[Tiberius]

If other people checked the evidence how would that help to differentiate between knowledge and opinion?

Because if other people check it and get the same result as you, then it indicates that what you have is legitimate evidence and not just opinion because it's unlikely that a large number of people would have the same opinion about an issue that you have.

How would the other people's opinions of the evidence be any more valid than my opinion of the evidence?

The value comes from the fact that there is widespread agreement about it. That is not likely to happen for an opinion, but it is likely to happen for objective evidence.

I want to have an opinion about the evidence, MY opinion, because that makes it MY belief.
I do not care what other people think about my beliefs because I am responsible to God for myself and my own beliefs
I am sorry you cannot understand this. I cannot make you understand it.

You can have whatever belief you want.

I only take issue when you start talking about your belief as though it was objectively true when there is no evidence to support that position.

The evidence can be verified by anyone who CHOOSES to verify it for themselves. Independent investigation of truth is a process that a person does by themself, they do not rely upon what others think about the evidence. We are all responsible to God for our own beliefs so they have to be our own beliefs that we came to believe by ourselves.

In other words, anyone who reaches the same opinion as you has verified it, and that means it's true.

That's not how legitimate evidence works, you know.

NO. I was not biased towards believing in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah! I never even heard of it before I discovered it so how could I have had a bias?

YES. You encountered the Baha'i faith and once you were a follower you were biased to believe all that the Baha'i faith leads to.