Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Hockeycowboy]

...every knee will bow—

And so does mine, because Jehovah God “gave him” that name & position.

Philippians 2:9-11

(Context is so important.)

 

[Tiberius]

There's this thing called the 'sympathetic near death experience' - encountered it when a family member
was dying and another member in the room had that experience.
I have read many drowning and NDE accounts, but on this particular day I couldn't stop reading the article
and with no explanation for my obsession.
Yes, I have read suggestions that particles might 'entangle' to the future. And this might 'explain' why some
people are just so good at 'knowing' events which haven't happened. Entanglement might work in brains,
think it's been shown in animal navigation.

After I had a couple of these strange events I began trying to see if I could actually control the impressions.
I could not. So if some weird 'feeling' comes out of left field and I have no emotional connection to the feeling
then I take note of it. Happens maybe once every couple of years. I write it down to see how many times this
feeling happened but the event didn't.

If it happens once every couple of years, then that seems to me like it's explainable by nothing more than chance. I mean, there are seven and a half billion people on the planet. Even if something has a one in a million chance, that's still a few thousand times it's going to happen.

 

[PruePhillip]

If it happens once every couple of years, then that seems to me like it's explainable by nothing more than chance. I mean, there are seven and a half billion people on the planet. Even if something has a one in a million chance, that's still a few thousand times it's going to happen.

Sure, but the chances get fantastic.
I had a ten minute nap and experience a vivid dream of being on a snow sled, I cracked the
whip and yelled 'Mush'!! The dogs excitedly took off. But then the ice broke and dogs were
lost. I looked around and friends were watching me. No noise. We were waiting for the dogs
to reappear in the black water, but they didn't.

Never have had a vivid dream in a short nap like that.

Immediately after this:
Took my dog for a walk and another dog bit its back, breaking its spine. The vet said not to
call him for a week as he cared for the dog. Everyone was asking, but I could say nothing. I
new saw that dog again.

If I had thousands such dreams and I remembered just one of them which coincided with this
sad experience then fine - I was a science teacher. I read one to two hours of science every
day since I could read. But sometimes.....

911
Never found this after seeing it. A clairvoyant in 1999 on TV said he 'saw' something happening
in New York, something about a plane, and buildings burning, September. That was amazing.
Just because a lot are fakes or delusions doesn't mean all are fake and delusions. Weird stuff
happens.

I was in America 1999. I was obsessessed with terrorism. Even flying over I kept wondering
what if someone put a bomb on the plane? I couldn't get it out of my head at the twin towers
(but put that down to the basement bombing earlier) and thought about it when I was the
last in the statue of liberty one day. I am not usually like this. But that trip haunted me for some
reason. The whole country felt open to attack.

 

[Truthseeker]

I guess that's the question being asked? It's seems neither of us have a way of knowing that. I'm okay with that. If you can support that you are not fabricating your evidence that would be awesome. That would certainly give me more evidence than I currently have as to the veracity of your claims. Thanks in advance for your insight.

The only evidence for now is a few words by Baha'u'llah. Do these seem inspired to you?

O Son of Spirit! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a1

O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a2

O Son of Being! Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a6

O Son of Being! Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a11

O Son of Being! With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a12

O Son of Light! Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a16

The reason I present these is because of these words said by Baha'u'llah:

Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 52.2

We can't probably do the first testimony today because we can't be in His presence today. You can of course compare accounts by believers and non-believers. So I am probably left with His Revelation and words as proof. If you believe in a Prophet of God, you are believing in the God behind the Prophet, in my opinion. There is no logical way to prove the existence of god. Do His words make sense to you, do they inspire your inner feelings?

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

 

[RestlessSoul]

The "right behaviors" being...?

That you should love each other, as I have loved you.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I don't think the bible in it's entirety displays well a god that has "loved" us, much less his own chosen people. On the other hand, historical track record certainly is living up to that example...

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, but the chances get fantastic.
I had a ten minute nap and experience a vivid dream of being on a snow sled, I cracked the
whip and yelled 'Mush'!! The dogs excitedly took off. But then the ice broke and dogs were
lost. I looked around and friends were watching me. No noise. We were waiting for the dogs
to reappear in the black water, but they didn't.

Never have had a vivid dream in a short nap like that.

Immediately after this:
Took my dog for a walk and another dog bit its back, breaking its spine. The vet said not to
call him for a week as he cared for the dog. Everyone was asking, but I could say nothing. I
new saw that dog again.

If I had thousands such dreams and I remembered just one of them which coincided with this
sad experience then fine - I was a science teacher. I read one to two hours of science every
day since I could read. But sometimes.....

911
Never found this after seeing it. A clairvoyant in 1999 on TV said he 'saw' something happening
in New York, something about a plane, and buildings burning, September. That was amazing.
Just because a lot are fakes or delusions doesn't mean all are fake and delusions. Weird stuff
happens.

I was in America 1999. I was obsessessed with terrorism. Even flying over I kept wondering
what if someone put a bomb on the plane? I couldn't get it out of my head at the twin towers
(but put that down to the basement bombing earlier) and thought about it when I was the
last in the statue of liberty one day. I am not usually like this. But that trip haunted me for some
reason. The whole country felt open to attack.

The chances are fantastic?

There are literally billions of people on the planet. Even if the odds are one in a million, that's still plenty of people who have a dream about something and shortly afterwards experience a real life event that is in some way related to that dream.

 

[PruePhillip]

The chances are fantastic?

There are literally billions of people on the planet. Even if the odds are one in a million, that's still plenty of people who have a dream about something and shortly afterwards experience a real life event that is in some way related to that dream.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. I don't have vivid dreams in short naps.
Never.
So that was strange.
And the dream so closely matched the resultant experience.

Another one. I visited my elderly mother one day and told her that the following mid year
I think her own mother was going to die. My mother takes my premonitions seriously and
was worried.
One year later, June 30th to be exact, we got a phone call from my sister to tell us she has
terminal cancer. It wasn't my grandmother and no-one died. What I think happened was that
I 'saw' something and interpreted it the only way I knew how - because it's happened before.

Who said that universe is stranger than we can imagine? I take seriously the claims of people
to have premonitions or see ghosts or even UFO's. Don't laugh at people.
I worked with a guy who's brother vanished in 1978 I think, Valentich UFO case. World wide
coverage. NASA returned the audio and radar tapes to him, he said 'NASA has no natural
explanation for what happened to my brother.' I am sure 'something' got him - look it up.

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, but not quite in the same way. I don't have vivid dreams in short naps.
Never.
So that was strange.
And the dream so closely matched the resultant experience.

Another one. I visited my elderly mother one day and told her that the following mid year
I think her own mother was going to die. My mother takes my premonitions seriously and
was worried.
One year later, June 30th to be exact, we got a phone call from my sister to tell us she has
terminal cancer. It wasn't my grandmother and no-one died. What I think happened was that
I 'saw' something and interpreted it the only way I knew how - because it's happened before.

Who said that universe is stranger than we can imagine? I take seriously the claims of people
to have premonitions or see ghosts or even UFO's. Don't laugh at people.
I worked with a guy who's brother vanished in 1978 I think, Valentich UFO case. World wide
coverage. NASA returned the audio and radar tapes to him, he said 'NASA has no natural
explanation for what happened to my brother.' I am sure 'something' got him - look it up.

I really think you're stretching to make that a "hit." If we're looking at this level of accuracy, then we should expect to see these things happening all the time.

 

[PruePhillip]

I really think you're stretching to make that a "hit." If we're looking at this level of accuracy, then we should expect to see these things happening all the time.

Some say, 'What's the chances this happens all the time' and others could say
'What's the chance it doesn't'?

One famous skeptic has a blog and challenged people over the issue of stats,
quote – “Scholars have a number of ways of making good probability judgments
about such things based on a number of criteria…”

I did a back-of-envelope calculation for the biblical Jacob's prophecy concerning
the coming Israel and its end when the Messiah comes.

Chance of one particular Semite tribe becoming a nation? Difficult, let’s say 1/1000.
Chance of a monarchy? God was against monarchy but monarchies were common – 50%.
Chance of a king from Juda as opposed to the other brothers ? Easy, 1/12.
Chance of a theocratic law? 50%
etc
etc
etc


I came up with a 'generous probability' of = 0.000000000000415, which is far greater than
one in a trillion.

So yeah, the universe is far stranger than we CAN imagine.

 

[Tiberius]

Some say, 'What's the chances this happens all the time' and others could say
'What's the chance it doesn't'?

One famous skeptic has a blog and challenged people over the issue of stats,
quote – “Scholars have a number of ways of making good probability judgments
about such things based on a number of criteria…”

I did a back-of-envelope calculation for the biblical Jacob's prophecy concerning
the coming Israel and its end when the Messiah comes.

Chance of one particular Semite tribe becoming a nation? Difficult, let’s say 1/1000.
Chance of a monarchy? God was against monarchy but monarchies were common – 50%.
Chance of a king from Juda as opposed to the other brothers ? Easy, 1/12.
Chance of a theocratic law? 50%
etc
etc
etc


I came up with a 'generous probability' of = 0.000000000000415, which is far greater than
one in a trillion.

So yeah, the universe is far stranger than we CAN imagine.

Given your apparently baseless assumptions about the probabilities as well as how you seem to be relying on random chance rather than an intent striving for a particular goal, I doubt your calculations are particularly accurate.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal. Bahaollah

Who is this Bahaollah guy? Was he the mid-19th Century Iranian who had not studied in any school? Why should we not believe what our intelligence says and believe in this gentleman? What proof did he provide for what he was saying? Why should not what he was saying be applied to his own sayings?

You are stuck in the material world.

Is there any other world? What proof?

 

[PruePhillip]

Given your apparently baseless assumptions about the probabilities as well as how you seem to be relying on random chance rather than an intent striving for a particular goal, I doubt your calculations are particularly accurate.

Sure, some things, like which tribe would reign over the Hebrews was easy, 1 in 12.
But how many Semitic tribes was impossible to tell - so approximations are necessary.
And then the probability the Messiah's coming would be the end of Israel, and the Gentiles
would believe on him are strictly impossible to assertain, I gave it one in a million - far too
generous. Thus one in a trillion possibility for Jacob's prophecy of Juda is way too generous.
Meaning of course, it wasn't a fluke.

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, some things, like which tribe would reign over the Hebrews was easy, 1 in 12.
But how many Semitic tribes was impossible to tell - so approximations are necessary.
And then the probability the Messiah's coming would be the end of Israel, and the Gentiles
would believe on him are strictly impossible to assertain, I gave it one in a million - far too
generous. Thus one in a trillion possibility for Jacob's prophecy of Juda is way too generous.
Meaning of course, it wasn't a fluke.

Still entirely speculation on your part.

 

[PruePhillip]

Still entirely speculation on your part.

Sure, speculation with some probability thrown in.
If the Aztecs believe that in a certain year white skinned invaders would arrive and overthrow their
empire, and Cortez turns up that year - then this is something more than 'speculation.' You can do
the math on 'what's the chances of THAT happening?"

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, speculation with some probability thrown in.
If the Aztecs believe that in a certain year white skinned invaders would arrive and overthrow their
empire, and Cortez turns up that year - then this is something more than 'speculation.' You can do
the math on 'what's the chances of THAT happening?"

Given that you are using speculation and probability (and your probability seems to be little more than guesswork most of the time), I remain firmly unconvinced..

Also, do you got a source for the claim that the Aztecs predicted the Spanish invasion?? Coz I got a source that says you're stretching at best. Did the Aztecs Prophesy the Spanish would Come?

 

[PruePhillip]

Given that you are using speculation and probability (and your probability seems to be little more than guesswork most of the time), I remain firmly unconvinced..

Also, do you got a source for the claim that the Aztecs predicted the Spanish invasion?? Coz I got a source that says you're stretching at best. Did the Aztecs Prophesy the Spanish would Come?

Not using speculation but asking 'what is the probability.'
If I predict that China will become the dominant power in the world you could say that
has an 80% chance of becoming fact within a century.
If I say that Portugal will rise again and become the dominant world power I would put
the chances at less than 1%.
But should Portugal rise again, and there's some obscure text which says that Portugal
will twice become a world power then it's reasonable to think about that.
And in the Old Testament, BEFORE Israel went into captivity, or DURING that captivity,
several writers spoke of the Jews returning to Israel, A SECOND TIME. That was nuts
to the captive Jews who expected to never see Israel again, let alone have a second
redemption. So you have to say, 'I don't believe the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel, but
what are the chances their second-return claims are true?'

 

[Tiberius]

Not using speculation but asking 'what is the probability.'
If I predict that China will become the dominant power in the world you could say that
has an 80% chance of becoming fact within a century.
If I say that Portugal will rise again and become the dominant world power I would put
the chances at less than 1%.
But should Portugal rise again, and there's some obscure text which says that Portugal
will twice become a world power then it's reasonable to think about that.
And in the Old Testament, BEFORE Israel went into captivity, or DURING that captivity,
several writers spoke of the Jews returning to Israel, A SECOND TIME. That was nuts
to the captive Jews who expected to never see Israel again, let alone have a second
redemption. So you have to say, 'I don't believe the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel, but
what are the chances their second-return claims are true?'

Yeah, it's still speculation. That's why you'd get different people giving different probabilities about the same thing, because they speculate differently.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yeah, it's still speculation. That's why you'd get different people giving different probabilities about the same thing, because they speculate differently.

But in the twice-return of Israel, written in Babylonian times, would have some fantastically
small chance of happening. We all agree on that - the numbers are academic because they
are subjective.

 

[Muffled]

I wouldn't call him a fire god, though when he does his dance, yes there's fire.

I am hot stuff, though. In multiple ways including "hot mess". Thanks for noticing.

I believe my very limited understanding of Shiva comes from what people say about him.