Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What kind of evidence for God would be compelling and substantive (Have a firm basis in reality therefore be meaningful, or important, worth considering) ?
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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
- Thread starter infrabenji
- Start date
infrabenji
Active Member
I think that’s a great question. I think god, if it existed, could/ should be able to figure out what kind of evidence would convince me. Maybe it’s Mormon god? Maybe, it’s Joseph smith who was the prophet? Lol I’m kidding. Not saying it’s not Mormon god don’t want to make the Mormons angry lol. My neighbors think it’s all of them. That all religions are right. Is that possible I wonder?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why do you think that God, if He existed, would want to convince you? According to my religion, God does not want to convince anyone that He exists, He wants everyone to choose to believe or not.
According to Baha'i beliefs, God could convince everyone that He exists if He wanted to, which makes sense since God is all-powerful. The following passage explains why God does not convince people that He exists. I tried to interpret the passage because not everyone understands the Writings of Baha'ullah (see below the passage).
“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71
In the context of the passage above, If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people it means that God could have made all people believers, but IF God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, verified by the fact that not all men are believers. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t want to make us believers... In short, God wants us to do our own homework and become believers by our own efforts (by virtue of their own innate powers).
According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort. Obviously you have put forth a lot of effort so I think you are sincere. You just have yet to find a religion that you can believe in.
If God proved to everyone that He exists then it would not be possible to distinguish between people and how much they really care about believing in God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, it is possible and that is what I believe. All religions share the same spiritual truths which are eternal so all religions are all true in that sense. The various religions only differ because they were revealed in different ages and the requirements of humanity are different in every age, so what was needed 2000 years ago is not what humanity needs now, and what humanity needs in the present age is not what humanity will need in a future age. I hope that makes sense.
“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
It says that 'God commaned the seas to bring forth life'
Did God create life or did the seas create life?
It says that the Babylonians sent the Jews into captivity.
So did God send the Jews into captivity for their sins?
The Romans destroyed Israel and sent the Jews into exile.
Did God seek vengeance against a people who 'knew not
the time of their visitation' or was it Rome?
It's both.
Ezekiel 36 is clearly about an exiled and hated people, of
whom a remnant will one day return to a land long neglected
and where the Jewish landmarks were now just ruins. I fail
to see how this is NOT our current age.
Love how the bible says the Jews will remain a people when
most other nationalities are gone (think Amonites, Edomites,
Romans, Amalakites, Philliistines etc..) and despite being
numerous in 'biblical times' they will remain a tiny remnant,
a people who are a 'blessing to the wo
Gog, Magog are mysteries. Some suggest they are the slavs.
But they live in the 'uttermost north' of the world. Yet they are
attacked by the 'islands' or 'coastlands' and 'from the north.'
In a nuclear war there will be a polar corridor for missiles
between Russia and America. A corridor, BTW, that's never
been tested (!)
Historians would not touch this stuff with a ten foot pole.
It's future history. But importantly, it applies to Israel
EVEN IF IT WASN'T MEANT FOR TODAY'S ISRAEL.
I do believe it's meant for Israel. In the boook of Isaiah
he writes to the Jews in that terrible Babylonian time
that they would return to Israel 'a second time.' I could
imagine Jcaptive ews reading this in bewilderment.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I accept things as real when they can be measured and corroborated by different people.
If I see the elephant and say it is walking in a certain direction, and other people see the elephant and say it is walking in the same direction, then I can conclude that the elephant is real and that my observation is accurate. If I see the elephant and other people say there is no elephant, then I have to consider that the elephant is a hallucination I am experiencing.
infrabenji
Active Member
That’s wild stuff. I would like it to be true. That would be awesome if people could see the future or use magic or whatever. Very interesting how the stuff seems to line up if you look at it just right. I don’t think the muslims are probably to fond of this though. I wonder what they would say? Thanks for putting your heart and back into it. You must have spent a lot of time studying this stuff. Is that the best most accurate prophecy in your opinion or do you maybe know of any obscure prophecies from maybe a minor prophet or something that isn’t commonly known? Genuine curiosity and all my chores are done so I’ve got time lol.
infrabenji
Active Member
That’s basically how I feel about it in a nutshell. Looking forward to hearing Mikkel’s response. Mikkel loves philosophy a lot I think? I think he’ll love expounding on your clarification.
infrabenji
Active Member
I’m not even sure god exists in the first place but if it did and has no interest in showing me evidence that would convince me it’s pretty much a non starter. It’s like an imaginary friend who never introduced itself. Do you have any evidence for god that doesn’t come from your holy book? Genuinely curious, I’ve run into some religious people who only use a holy book to back up their claims but it just seems to end in a circular argument. God is real because the book says it’s real because the book says it’s real and so forth. Lastly, out of curiosity, is your god not omnipotent? “If God proved to everyone that He exists then it would not be possible to distinguish between people and how much they really care about believing in God.” Wouldn’t god being all powerful be able to distinguish between people and how much they really cared about believing? If your gods not omnipotent please disregard that last question. I don’t want to assume anything when I can just ask you. Which is pretty cool.
infrabenji
Active Member
You know what I’m surprised about? How many people are willing to have a discussion. It’s awesome and humbling to have so many people from different religious and non religious backgrounds take time to tell me about their beliefs and why they matter. Still haven’t been compelled to believe there even can be a god or gods but I love having the conversation. I may have adjusted my skepticism a bit. But no god belief yet. Still open for debate or discussion. I’m glad that it is so diverse. Any religious belief anytime. Let’s discuss it and see if I can be convinced. I’ve got all night since I moved all my appointments for tomorrow to today and finished everything even the grocery shopping. Thanks in advance for your thoughtful consideration. Hope to talk to you soon.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Messianic prophecies came true because Mark wrote a savior demigod myth (a common myth in the Middle East at the time) with one purpose of making it seem like the prophecies came true.
Mark uses Psalms, John and other sources and the mythic literary devices are higher than the King Arthur tale.
If one wants to speak about prophecies that came true in vague unimpressive ways then what about prophecies that did not come true?
Here are just a few of them.
God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. [URL='https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/22.html#17']22:17-18, 26:4[/URL]
- God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
- The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10
- Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24
- God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to keep his promise. 33:2
- God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But he was unable to keep his promise. 7:1, 7:23-24, 31:3
- God's favorite people will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. (God will send infertility and diseases on the other guys.) 7:14-15
- God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5, 3:10, 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13, 17:17-18, 21:43-45
- This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28
Judges
- God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But he failed to keep that promise 1:19, 1:21-27, 3:1-5
2 Samuel
- "Thy kingdom shall be established for ever."
God says that Davids's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
- I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37
- These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
- Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22
- This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
- God will ride in on a cloud and scare the hell out of the Egyptians. 19:1
- The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
- "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
- This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
- These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21
- These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24
- "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made. 52:1
- Isaiah 53 is probably the most often used "prophecy" that is claimed by Christian apologists to refer to Jesus. But the context indicates otherwise. The "suffering servant" that is referred to here is Israel, not Jesus. 53:1-12
- Nations that do not serve Israel will perish. 60:12
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Just this one for now... the driving out of the pagans
One of the big issues that effected the relationship between the Jew and his
God in the Old Testament was the REFUSAL of the Jews to fully drive the
Canaanites out of the land. In fact, until the Babylonian captivity, archaelogists
are often struggling to tell Jew from Canaanite graves due to the presence of
idols to Baal, Asherarh, Gad, El, Dagon etc..Jews worshipped these. It was
warned in the early times that if Israel did not drive out the pagan then they
themselves would become pagan. And hence the stories of the Captivity, or
the Assyrian exile etc..
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
The 'demi god myth' came much earlier. Jacob in Egypt spoke to his son Juda and
stated there would one day be a Hebrew nation with a monarchy and the law, and
it would end when the Messiah came - and this Messiah would be believed upon of
the nations.
Not sure how Mark shoe horned this into his narrative. If he did then who is Jacob
speaking of?
And Job said the Redeemer is alive in his day and would one day stand on the
earth. Who was HE speaking of?
And Isaiah said this Messianic figure would be despised and rejected, and after
his cruel death he would see the victory he had won. Who was Isaiah writing of?
And David spoke of this Lord being crucified. And Daniel said the enemy that
would destroy Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish nation would also 'cut off'
the Messiah, who would die for his people. Who are all these people speaking of?
Perhaps someone yet to come?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why do you expect God to show you what you an find for yourself? Do you believe that God is a man who can show up and introduce Himself?
The only evidence that God exists comes from Holy Books. That is not circular. God is not real because the book says so, the book says so because God is real.
Yes, I believe that God is omnipotent but omnipotence is not what enables God to distinguish between people and how much they really care about believing, omniscience is what allows God to know. But the fact that God knows who really cares is not what matters, because God knows everything. My point was that God wants people to prove that they care about believing by their actions. God knows what those actions will be because God knows everything past present and future.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You said you are not even sure God exists. Are you sure God doesnt exist? Are you agnostic?
Also, you are claiming God not showing evidence to you is a non-starter right? Is not that an argument from silence?
Just look at your type of reasoning. Do you accept logic?
infrabenji
Active Member
Nah, I just think the question is a non starter for good discourse. It’s been beaten to death. Do you mean the argument from divine hiddenness? I like the laws of logic, critical thinking, logical fallacies, all that. I don’t believe in absolute certainty so no I’m not sure god doesn’t exist. Are you trying to shift the burden of proof? It’s easier to accuse (cuz it sounds like you’re accusing me of something) than to discuss but I prefer discussion. I’ll also take the debate option if you’re a theist. Pick your best argument and we’ll look at it together.
infrabenji
Active Member
The only evidence that God exists comes from Holy Books. That is not circular. God is not real because the book says so, the book says so because God is real.
That is definitely circular reasoning. By all accounts it is circular reasoning.
That is definitely circular reasoning. By all accounts it is circular reasoning.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Your argument you posed above is that God is not giving you evidence. To make an argument like that you have to first be coherent with the definition of God. How do you define God even if he does not exist?
Is God an evidence providing, anthropomorphic God concept that you hold? IN that case you have to define what evidence is and what is your source of knowledge.
Forget about making burden shifts etc etc because see as I remember this is the first post I made in response to you so I have not made a claim to shift any burdens.
How do you understand the concept of God? What is your epistemology?
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
The good about belief is that it is personal. If a person in some form has a connection with God, ot is between that person and God.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
I am preparing a long answer for you. But relevant to this is Fries'/Münchhaussen's/Agrippa's Trilemma. That applies to all justification apparently.