Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

So, two questions.

Do you think this person meets the first set of criteria? Yes or no?

Secondly, John 14:6 would seem to indicate that Jesus was not a messenger of God. There are many other parts of the Bible that claim to be the only path to religious truth. By your logic, the Bible would not be valid as a source, since it says it is the only true religion (as did Jesus).

What person? Are you referring to Baha'u'llah? If so, He met the criteria.

Are you going to go by one Bible verse to determine who Jesus was? That would be the fallacy of cherry-picking.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the only way, the only truth, and the only life: no man ever cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What Jesus said in John 14:6 only applied to the Christian dispensation, it was not ever intended to apply for all time.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

According to my beliefs by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes.

I believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Manifestation of God and I believe that Manifestation is Baha'u'llah.

`````````````````````````````````````````````
There are verses where Baha'u'llah claims to be the only path to eternal life, just as Jesus said in His Day.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Jesus brought a message from God so that would make Jesus a Messenger of God even though that terminology was not used in the Bible.

 

[Tiberius]

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

God does want everyone to go to heaven (I don't believe in saved, since there is nothing to be saved from) but God does not override a person's free will decision to choose to believe or not believe. Remember John?

God does not intentionally make the path narrow, in fact it is not even God who makes the paths. Humans create their own destinies by choosing to enter the wide gate and follow the broad road that leads to destruction or choosing to enter through the narrow gate and walk the narrow road that leads to eternal life.

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and Jesus said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.

I believe that the Baha'i Faith is now the narrow gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in this age. The Baha’i Faith and is the narrow gate because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning and enter through that gate.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Secondly, the passage above refers to eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God. The verse does not say that everyone else will get death.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (the spiritual world).

The soul can never die because it is immortal. Only the physical body can die because it is mortal.

All souls continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Baha'u'llah wrote the same thing about believing in Him and gaining eternal life.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, and although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they are “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

Yes, I remember John. I don't know why you'd think I'm going to be convinced by this when I didn't find your arguments convincing before.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was specifically responding to your claim, "If God did everything He is capable of God could wipe all humans out in a heartbeat" as an explanation for why God does not communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way.

You seem to be suggesting that if God did communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way, then he would have to do everything he is capable of doing. This does not follow. God is surely capable of communicating to everyone without killing everyone.

No, I was not suggesting that if God did communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way, then He would have to do everything he is capable of doing. Such a statement would be illogical. I only used wiping out all humans as an example to point out that God does not do everything He is capable of doing just because God is capable of doing it.

Let me put it this way: God does some things He is capable of doing but God does not do everything He is capable of doing, so when atheists say that God could communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way they are right, but when atheists say that God should communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way that is an entirely different statement because God does not do everything He could do.

Nobody can put "shoulds" on God because God only does what He chooses to do. God does not choose to communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way, and that is why God does not do it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I remember John. I don't know why you'd think I'm going to be convinced by this when I didn't find your arguments convincing before.

And I do not know why you think I am trying to convince you of anything. I just post accurate information about what I believe but I do not expect anyone else to believe it.

 

[Tiberius]

What person? Are you referring to Baha'u'llah? If so, He met the criteria.

No, not him. His name is irrelevant. I just want you to tell me if you think this person meets your criteria. I don't want you to judge by the name, but judge by the person they were.

Are you going to go by one Bible verse to determine who Jesus was? That would be the fallacy of cherry-picking.

It's not cherry picking. If there is one passage that says what Jesus claims he is, then no other passage can contradict it, right?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the only way, the only truth, and the only life: no man ever cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The fact he said THE way and THE truth instead of A way and A truth tells you all you need to know. The difference between THE and A is very important. What Is The Difference Between ‘The' and ‘A' In A Contract? | LegalVision

What Jesus said in John 14:6 only applied to the Christian dispensation, it was not ever intended to apply for all time.

Speculation.

There are verses where Baha'u'llah claims to be the only path to eternal life, just as Jesus said in His Day.

Then your very own criteria eliminate him.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I was not suggesting that if God did communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way, then He would have to do everything he is capable of doing. Such a statement would be illogical. I only used wiping out all humans as an example to point out that God does not do everything He is capable of doing just because God is capable of doing it.

Let me put it this way: God does some things He is capable of doing but God does not do everything He is capable of doing, so when atheists say that God could communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way they are right, but when atheists say that God should communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way that is an entirely different statement because God does not do everything He could do.

Nobody can put "shoulds" on God because God only does what He chooses to do. God does not choose to communicate to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way, and that is why God does not do it.

So what?

Are you telling me that when someone asks the very reasonable question, "Why doesn't God give everyone what they need to be a believer like he wants them to be?" your answer is, "Well, he doesn't hafta do it if he doesn't want to!"

Really? That's not even an answer to the question, it's just making the sort of excuse you'd expect from a five year old.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, not him. His name is irrelevant. I just want you to tell me if you think this person meets your criteria. I don't want you to judge by the name, but judge by the person they were.

Yes, this person would meet my first criterion.

It's not cherry picking. If there is one passage that says what Jesus claims he is, then no other passage can contradict it, right?

Yes, another verse can contradict that verse. The Bible is full of contradictory verses.
But as I showed you I do not believe that verse means what Christians believe it means. I believe Jesus was saying that He was the way the truth and the life and nobody could come to the Father but by Him during the His Dispensation. So the verse does not apply to all of time, it only applies until God sends another Messenger.

After Jesus God sent Muhammad and then Muhammad was the Way to the Father. Christians just don't want to face reality because they want to run the show. Tough toenails. It's too late for that as there are almost as many Muslims in the world now as Christians. Nobody can thwart the Will of God.

The fact he said THE way and THE truth instead of A way and A truth tells you all you need to know. The difference between THE and A is very important. What Is The Difference Between ‘The' and ‘A' In A Contract? | LegalVision

That does change a thing, Jesus was the way but Jesus never said He is the ONLY way, truth and life for all time.

Speculation.

No, it is just my belief,and it makes logical sense if you think about it. Why would one Messenger be the Only Way for all of time? What kind of a God would that be who would exclude 67% of the population from eternal life?

Then your very own criteria eliminate him.

Eliminate who? Baha'ul'lah is not the Only Way for all time, but He is the way God wants us to use for His Dispensation, just as Jesus was the way for His Dispensation.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what?

Are you telling me that when someone asks the very reasonable question, "Why doesn't God give everyone what they need to be a believer like he wants them to be?" your answer is, "Well, he doesn't hafta do it if he doesn't want to!"

Really? That's not even an answer to the question, it's just making the sort of excuse you'd expect from a five year old.

What you are really asking is "Why doesn't God give everyone what they want to be a believer like he wants them to be?"

I do not consider that a reasonable question since there is no reason to think that God would or should give everyone what they want to become a believer. I can tell you WHY God does not give everyone what they want to become a believer, but you never asked that question.

I believe that God has given everyone what they need to become a believer, but they did not want what God gave them so that is why they are not believers.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, this person would meet my first criterion.

Cool. What are the next criterion?

Yes, another verse can contradict that verse. The Bible is full of contradictory verses.

And you just cherry pick the ones that suit your purposes and ignore the rest, don't you?

But as I showed you I do not believe that verse means what Christians believe it means. I believe Jesus was saying that He was the way the truth and the life and nobody could come to the Father but by Him during the His Dispensation. So the verse does not apply to all of time, it only applies until God sends another Messenger.

After Jesus God sent Muhammad and then Muhammad was the Way to the Father. Christians just don't want to face reality because they want to run the show. Tough toenails. It's too late for that as there are almost as many Muslims in the world now as Christians. Nobody can thwart the Will of God.

I love your double standard when it comes to the Bible. If a particular verse can be used to support your faith, then THAT is the correct interpretation of that verse. But otherwise, that's just a part of the Bible that doesn't count.

That does change a thing, Jesus was the way but Jesus never said He is the ONLY way, truth and life for all time.

Once again, THE way means the one and only way.

THE is the definite article. It is used to refer to a specific thing. A in called the indefinite article, and it can mean one thing out of many.

So "A pen" refers to any pen, it doesn't matter which one. "THE pen" refers to a specific pen, and no other pen. "A way" refers to one way out of many ways, but "THE way" refers to one way and no other way. This is basic English grammar.

In any case, the "You aren't going to get the TRUTH unless you do it this particular way" is pretty clear to any rational speaker of English. If I kidnapped one of your family and say, "You're won't get them back unless your rob the bank," are you going to say, "Well, he never said that is the ONLY way I'll ever get my loved one back, so I'll look for a different, non-bank-robbing way instead"?

No, it is just my belief,and it makes logical sense if you think about it. Why would one Messenger be the Only Way for all of time? What kind of a God would that be who would exclude 67% of the population from eternal life?

That's like saying, "Why would God make it so that gravity worked just that one way for all time?"

Eliminate who? Baha'ul'lah is not the Only Way for all time, but He is the way God wants us to use for His Dispensation, just as Jesus was the way for His Dispensation.

Your criteria made it clear that if someone said, "You can only reach truth through me, I am the only way to the truth," then that person could not be a messenger of God. Yet you also say that Baha made this exact claim, as you said in post 761: "There are verses where Baha'u'llah claims to be the only path to eternal life"

So he fails your own criteria. You will no doubt start making excuses to get out of this.

 

[Tiberius]

What you are really asking is "Why doesn't God give everyone what they want to be a believer like he wants them to be?"

I do not consider that a reasonable question since there is no reason to think that God would or should give everyone what they want to become a believer. I can tell you WHY God does not give everyone what they want to become a believer, but you never asked that question.

I believe that God has given everyone what they need to become a believer, but they did not want what God gave them so that is why they are not believers.

Rather arrogant of you to think that you understand better than me what I need to be a believer, isn't it?

 

[Trailblazer]

That’s really fascinating. So you became Baha’i because of their message of peace essentially and the strength of your belief in a deity was kind of ancillary. It wasn’t until years later that your belief in god fully developed. I can definitely get behind Baha’i’s (I don’t know what the plural of Baha’i is or if there is one) message certainly, but to assume god exists as a starting point is problematic. Even if it feels right.

I did not assume God exists when I became a Baha'i, I just did not really care if God existed back then. That might seem odd to you, but that is the way it was, as I recall. I even said prayers not even understanding anything about God. I had no feeling for God and no knowledge about God, so I was praying without knowing what I was praying to. It did not feel right or wrong, I did not feel anything at all. You'd have to understand my childhood history in order to understand why I was devoid of feelings. I started dealing with my childhood issues later, after I had been a Baha'i for about 13 years and it took 15 years to get the help I needed for my emotional problems.

I remained a Baha'i all those years because I never lost my belief in Baha'ullah, but I never connected to God or knew anything about God until about seven years ago, since I had not read the Writings of Baha'u'llah where He describes God. I was also not active in my Bahai community partly because I felt like an outsider since I did not love God like the other Baha'is do. I forgot to mention that I went through a period of about 10 years where I hated God for all the suffering I had to endure, from about 2003 - 2013, but I gradually got over that and although I am still only lukewarm towards God I still have a lot of work to do before I will ever love God. One way I get around that is by trying to work extra hard for the Cause of God because Baha'is believe that work is worship. In my heart I know God understands how I feel and why I feel this way and I do not believe I will be punished because God is the most merciful of the merciful Why I have had to suffer so much was just my fate and I do not really blame God anymore, but it was a long road to get where I am at now.

It also feels to me that if we assume or somehow know someone is a messenger for god it begs the question of gods existence and the assumption has already taken place before the determination can be made based on the evidence whether or not the god exists. Does that make any sense?

Yes, that makes sense and I agree we should not assume that God exists, but I tend to do things backwards although I always get them done as I am an overachiever. But the fly in the ointment is that I never really cared if God existed, I only cared about the teachings and principles and primary message of the Baha'i Faith., the oneness of mankind, the oneness of religion and the unity of mankind. Only much later did I think about God and as soon as I did I did not think of much else, as I tend to be a single-focused person.

Like if someone tells me chocolate ice cream will bring world peace and tastes really good and I’ve never had it. I’ve been pre-conditioned to accept to multiple ideas. And then it turns out chocolate ice cream does taste really good in fact, it’s the best tasting thing I’ve ever had. So it follows logically that this persons message is true and that ice cream does not only taste good but will also bring world peace. Does that mean chocolate ice cream will bring world peace? No. Humans are surprisingly susceptible to this type of conditioning. It is exploited in people all the time from cults to mlm’s to self help seminars to pilgrimages for healing that never happens. These ideas once planted are then encouraged and reinforced through indoctrination until they feel natural.

Yes, I agree that people are very susceptible to being indoctrinated, misled and even deluded. To be honest, I believe that is what has happened to Christians. However, i was never indoctrinated as both my parents were free thinkers. Back in the day when 95% of people in the united States were Christians both my parents had left Christianity which they were both raided in. My father became an atheists and my mother retained a belief in God and much later became a Baha'i at age 60, and she remained a Baha'i till she died at age 93.

Have you heard of the sunken cost fallacy? If not, It’s where someone has spent so much time and effort on something that they can’t let it go. This is what usually follows, in my experience, for victims of this type of conditioning. It’s the refusal to think critically and the acceptance of complacency. You’re obviously a smart person and you’re on a debate forum so I’m assuming you’re not absolutely certain? Though I could be wrong. Have you had anything happen spiritual or otherwise, maybe your studies, that would make you absolutely certain?

No, I never heard of that fallacy although I know many of the logical fallacies. But that sure makes sense that people would not want to give up something that have invested so much time and energy in. Of course much of our thought process is in the unconscious mind so I do not think people have any awareness of what is going on, and why they do what they do.

I am not really here to debate even though I get drawn into debates. I much prefer discussions and socializing to debates, but if I see things I believe are wrong I am going to point it out. I have no need to prove my beliefs are true because I know they are true given I have raked them over the coals for so long. Constantly atheists are asking me to prove God exists or that my beliefs are true but I tell them that is my job. I do not mind talking to people and explaining my beliefs and answering questions but I do not believe the faith of anyone can be conditioned by anyone except themselves, as Baha'u'llah wrote.

When I first came to forums about eight and a half years ago I was probably about 80% certain my Bahai beliefs were true and I recall telling people that on the forum I was then posting on, but the more I was challenged by people on forums, mostly Christians and atheists, the more I learned about Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith and the more certain I was that it was true. It got to the point where I was 100% certain, thanks to all the people who tried and failed to refute my beliefs and causing me to research them all the more and discover how true they are. In fact, logically speaking, I cannot see how they could be false, but in order for you to understand why I say that you would have to look at all the evidence I have looked at and understand how the Baha'i Faith is tied in with all the other religions.

But just because I believe that Baha'i Faith is unequivocally true, that does not mean I do not have a lot to learn. Baha'is believe that the search for truth is a lifelong process and will continue after we die and enter the spiritual world. You can see how many posts I have posted which gives you an good idea that I have put a 24/7 effort into my search for truth. I learn a lot from people of other religions and beliefs on this forum.

I cannot say how long I have been 100% certain that God exists, but it seems like a long time, probably since June 2014 when I read Gleanings with a serious intent for the first time. My husband of 36 years has a very different personality than me but he is as certain of Baha'u'llah and God as I am, and has been for over 55 years. He has not had the same struggles as i have had with whether God is good, he has complete faith that God is everything that Baha'u'llah says He is. It is interesting to note that my husband's parents were never believing Christians even though they attended Church, so Christianity never took with my husband. His parents eventually cut all ties with the Church as my parents had done. His mother became a nonbeliever and his father became a Baha'i, kind if the reverse of my parents.

 

[Trailblazer]

Rather arrogant of you to think that you understand better than me what I need to be a believer, isn't it?

I understand how that sounded and I apologize but you did not know what I meant by need.

Obviously you need something you do not have in order to become a believer, because you would be a believer if you had what you need.

However, I believe that everyone has been given what they need, which is the capacity to believe in God, because if God had not given everyone the capacity to believe how could God expect people to believe?

Baha’u’llah wrote that we all have the capacity to believe in God, because otherwise we could not be held accountable.....

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

....but just because we all have the capacity that does not mean everyone will be able to utilize that capacity, and I am sure that God understands that. Since God is all-knowing God knows who made a sincere effort to believe and that is what really matters. Not everyone will be a believer for a very long time, but eventually the time will come when everyone in the world will be a believer. That was promised in the Bible and in the Baha'i Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

Cool. What are the next criterion?

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

And you just cherry pick the ones that suit your purposes and ignore the rest, don't you?

What did I cherry pick?

I love your double standard when it comes to the Bible. If a particular verse can be used to support your faith, then THAT is the correct interpretation of that verse. But otherwise, that's just a part of the Bible that doesn't count.

It is an verse in the Bible that has been misinterpreted by Christians. There are other possible meanings to that verse and a Baha'i posted a thread about that verse so you can see the opinions other people had.

This is not about just my faith, it is about all other faiths that came after Christianity. Nothing could be more arrogant than the belief that Jesus is the Only Way for everyone for al time. Sorry you cannot see that is an untenable belief in light of the fact tat 22% of the world population are Muslims who believe that Muhammad was God's greatest Messenger and the Messenger for this age.

Once again, THE way means the one and only way.

The way for that dispensation.

That's like saying, "Why would God make it so that gravity worked just that one way for all time?"

No, it is not like gravity at all because in case you have noticed, Christianity is not working anymore, it is flailing and passing into the sunset whereas gravity is still with us and we see no signs of it diminishing. IF Jesus was the Only Way for all time why is Christianity on the decline whereas Islam and the Baha'i Faith are on the rise?

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Statistics from: Growth of religion

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century.

So if you believe that Jesus is the only way for all time why aren't you a Christian? Or do you just want to win an argument against me?

Your criteria made it clear that if someone said, "You can only reach truth through me, I am the only way to the truth," then that person could not be a messenger of God. Yet you also say that Baha made this exact claim, as you said in post 761: "There are verses where Baha'u'llah claims to be the only path to eternal life"

So he fails your own criteria. You will no doubt start making excuses to get out of this.

No, that is not what I said, you are misrepresenting what I said. I said: Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God.

Baha'u'llah never talked down any other religions and He never claimed to have revealed the only true religion from God. In fact, He said the exact opposite. Baha’u’llah warned us never to make any distinction between any of the Messengers of God (Manifestations of His Cause) or to discriminate against what they did on their missions from God because they all arise to proclaim the same religion, since there is only one eternal religion of God. Baha’u’llah wrote that the works and acts of all the Messengers of God were all ordained by God, a reflection of His Will and Purpose, meaning that all the religions are equally true and all the Messengers are equal in stature. Now compare that to what Christianity teaches, that Jesus is the only way and only what is in the Gospel message matters, so all the other religions are like trash. I consider this trashing of all the other religions despicable.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

In post 761 I said: There are verses where Baha'u'llah claims to be the only path to eternal life, just as Jesus said in His Day.

Baha'u'llah did not say anything that Jesus had not said about gaining eternal life. They both said that the way to attain eternal life was through them because it was/is the way to eternal life during their dispensations.

 

[infrabenji]

I did not assume God exists when I became a Baha'i, I just did not really care if God existed back then. That might seem odd to you, but that is the way it was, as I recall. I even said prayers not even understanding anything about God. I had no feeling for God and no knowledge about God, so I was praying without knowing what I was praying to. It did not feel right or wrong, I did not feel anything at all. You'd have to understand my childhood history in order to understand why I was devoid of feelings. I started dealing with my childhood issues later, after I had been a Baha'i for about 13 years and it took 15 years to get the help I needed for my emotional problems.

I remained a Baha'i all those years because I never lost my belief in Baha'ullah, but I never connected to God or knew anything about God until about seven years ago, since I had not read the Writings of Baha'u'llah where He describes God. I was also not active in my Bahai community partly because I felt like an outsider since I did not love God like the other Baha'is do. I forgot to mention that I went through a period of about 10 years where I hated God for all the suffering I had to endure, from about 2003 - 2013, but I gradually got over that and although I am still only lukewarm towards God I still have a lot of work to do before I will ever love God. One way I get around that is by trying to work extra hard for the Cause of God because Baha'is believe that work is worship. In my heart I know God understands how I feel and why I feel this way and I do not believe I will be punished because God is the most merciful of the merciful Why I have had to suffer so much was just my fate and I do not really blame God anymore, but it was a long road to get where I am at now.

Yes, that makes sense and I agree we should not assume that God exists, but I tend to do things backwards although I always get them done as I am an overachiever. But the fly in the ointment is that I never really cared if God existed, I only cared about the teachings and principles and primary message of the Baha'i Faith., the oneness of mankind, the oneness of religion and the unity of mankind. Only much later did I think about God and as soon as I did I did not think of much else, as I tend to be a single-focused person.

Yes, I agree that people are very susceptible to being indoctrinated, misled and even deluded. To be honest, I believe that is what has happened to Christians. However, i was never indoctrinated as both my parents were free thinkers. Back in the day when 95% of people in the united States were Christians both my parents had left Christianity which they were both raided in. My father became an atheists and my mother retained a belief in God and much later became a Baha'i at age 60, and she remained a Baha'i till she died at age 93.

No, I never heard of that fallacy although I know many of the logical fallacies. But that sure makes sense that people would not want to give up something that have invested so much time and energy in. Of course much of our thought process is in the unconscious mind so I do not think people have any awareness of what is going on, and why they do what they do.

I am not really here to debate even though I get drawn into debates. I much prefer discussions and socializing to debates, but if I see things I believe are wrong I am going to point it out. I have no need to prove my beliefs are true because I know they are true given I have raked them over the coals for so long. Constantly atheists are asking me to prove God exists or that my beliefs are true but I tell them that is my job. I do not mind talking to people and explaining my beliefs and answering questions but I do not believe the faith of anyone can be conditioned by anyone except themselves, as Baha'u'llah wrote.

When I first came to forums about eight and a half years ago I was probably about 80% certain my Bahai beliefs were true and I recall telling people that on the forum I was then posting on, but the more I was challenged by people on forums, mostly Christians and atheists, the more I learned about Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith and the more certain I was that it was true. It got to the point where I was 100% certain, thanks to all the people who tried and failed to refute my beliefs and causing me to research them all the more and discover how true they are. In fact, logically speaking, I cannot see how they could be false, but in order for you to understand why I say that you would have to look at all the evidence I have looked at and understand how the Baha'i Faith is tied in with all the other religions.

But just because I believe that Baha'i Faith is unequivocally true, that does not mean I do not have a lot to learn. Baha'is believe that the search for truth is a lifelong process and will continue after we die and enter the spiritual world. You can see how many posts I have posted which gives you an good idea that I have put a 24/7 effort into my search for truth. I learn a lot from people of other religions and beliefs on this forum.

I cannot say how long I have been 100% certain that God exists, but it seems like a long time, probably since June 2014 when I read Gleanings with a serious intent for the first time. My husband of 36 years has a very different personality than me but he is as certain of Baha'u'llah and God as I am, and has been for over 55 years. He has not had the same struggles as i have had with whether God is good, he has complete faith that God is everything that Baha'u'llah says He is. It is interesting to note that my husband's parents were never believing Christians even though they attended Church, so Christianity never took with my husband. His parents eventually cut all ties with the Church as my parents had done. His mother became a nonbeliever and his father became a Baha'i, kind if the reverse of my parents.

Thanks for sharing. It’s wild how you kind of did do things in reverse starting with ethics and morality of a religions teachings and moving from there to a god belief. I feel like most times people assume god and then pick which ever flavor of ice cream they like best (you probably guessed from my last post that mine is chocolate lol) I feel like indoctrination is a problem certainly amongst many religions. I believe it is a form of preservation but one that’s inherently selfish as the indoctrinated becomes the victim of an intellectual crime by being robbed of their ability to choose freely and willingly. You most certainly have done a lot of diligent seeking if your presence on this forum, which is buzzing with intellectuals, is taken into consideration. I agree as well with your assessment of the sunken cost fallacy and I think a lot of people’s thoughts and behaviors are unconscious, unfortunately. I don’t think faith, personal or otherwise, leads anywhere but self deception. I also think absolute certainty is problematic. I think what you’re describing is psychological certainty (also known as subjective certainty or certitude), which describes the highest degree to which a person could be convinced that something is true. While a person may be completely convinced that a particular belief is true, and might even be psychologically incapable of entertaining its falsity, this does not entail that the belief is itself beyond rational doubt or incapable of being false. As I read someone say on here somewhere “Because I can be tricked the only way to be absolutely certain god exists is to be god and since I can’t do any of the god stuff I know I am not god thus I am not certain”. Anyway just some alpo for thought. See you on the threads.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t think faith, personal or otherwise, leads anywhere but self deception. I also think absolute certainty is problematic. I think what you’re describing is psychological certainty (also known as subjective certainty or certitude), which describes the highest degree to which a person could be convinced that something is true. While a person may be completely convinced that a particular belief is true, and might even be psychologically incapable of entertaining its falsity, this does not entail that the belief is itself beyond rational doubt or incapable of being false.

I just want to hone in on this part. Unless you or anyone can prove a religion is false nobody can say that a believer in a particular religion has deceived themselves. They might be right about their religion or they might be wrong but if they are wrong that doesn't mean they deceived themselves. It just means they were wrong.

No religious belief is itself beyond rational doubt or incapable of being false but the converse also applies; no religious belief is itself incapable of being true.

As I always say, there is no way a religion can be proven true except to oneself. And how can we know if it is actually true? I believe we will know after we die if what we believed was true or not. Of course, this is only according to my beliefs and exactly how it will be made known to us is anyone's best guess.

 

[ratiocinator]

God is omnipotent thus capable of communicating to every single human in the world in a clear and unambiguous way but that is a moot point because God does not do everything that He is capable of. If God did everything He is capable of God could wipe all humans out in a heartbeat.

Clearly, it is because God is omnipotent that God only does what God chooses to do, not what you or anyone else expects Him to do. This is logic 101.

You can call God unjust and unfair till the cows come home, but that will not get God to do what you want Him to do, because God is not a short order cook who takes orders from humans. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do. This is logic 101.

You can call God unjust and unfair or cruel and evil till the cows come home, but that will not get God to do what you want Him to do, because God is not a short order cook who takes orders from humans. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do. This is logic 101.

You seem to be arguing against a position I've never put forward. I know that if an omnipotent exists, it will be capable of doing anything but will only do what it chooses to do. My problem is with what you are telling me your god has chosen to do. It's its choices (along with the total lack of evidence) that are the basis of my objection.

You do not have to 'scrabble around' to find the latest message from God. it is right at your fingertips because the Baha'is labored diligently to make it available to everyone in the world via the internet, in over 800 languages.

Everything you would ever want to know about God and everything that has been revealed by God to date is available for everyone to read in the Baha’i Reference Library:

Which again, misses the point. There is no reason, no prima facie case, that these documents are a new (-ish) message from the real god, so people still do stick with the religion they were born in, or scrabble around looking into all sorts of different religions, or simply see no reason to bother with any of them. And people do, as a result, get into sometimes deadly conflicts about it.

An omnipotent god could (if it chose so to do) easily prevent that by making the message not (apparently) just another set of scriptures from just another 'prophet', religious leader, or 'Messenger'. Just another religion telling everybody else that they've found the truth.

The mere existence of the Baha’i faith its online reference library isn't evidence that a god exists or that this is a new message from it. And if the god you describe does exist, and it has made the choice not to prevent all the confusion amongst even people who genuinely want to follow the true god or gods, let alone those of us who see no reason to think any exists at all, then I'd regard it as evil and not want to serve it anyway.

Do you understand now? From my point of view, either your god doesn't exist, or, if it does, and has made the choices that you said it has, then I want nothing to do with it anyway because I see a fundamental contradiction between the choices you claim it has made and it being a just and fair being.

 

[infrabenji]

I just want to hone in on this part. Unless you or anyone can prove a religion is false nobody can say that a believer in a particular religion has deceived themselves. They might be right about their religion or they might be wrong but if they are wrong that doesn't mean they deceived themselves. It just means they were wrong.

No religious belief is itself beyond rational doubt or incapable of being false but the converse also applies; no religious belief is itself incapable of being true.

As I always say, there is no way a religion can be proven true except to oneself. And how can we know if it is actually true? I believe we will know after we die if what we believed was true or not. Of course, this is only according to my beliefs and exactly how it will be made known to us is anyone's best guess.

Are we talking about self deception through faith? Because I am pretty sure faith cannot be used as a pathway to truth. Faith is totally unreliable as a methodology for assessing the truth value of claims that are made. If a persons believes by faith and is wrong how have they not deceived themselves? Faith is the personal and subjective vehicle for their belief. There is no objective faith. I don’t think it has to do with a religion being right or wrong. It’s just plainly deleterious to the acquisition of an accurate model of reality. I might as well throw darts off a cliff in Oregon and try to hit a dart board in Ireland blindfolded. It’s not impossible I’ll somehow do it but the likely hood I’ll hit the dart board is unimaginably improbable. Think of all the propositions religion offers and the only mechanism they have to prove the veracity of their many claims is faith. I know right off the bat to apply extra scrutiny when someone expects me to believe extraordinary propositions on faith. The likely hood they are correct is also unimaginably improbable as is evidenced. Also faith requires a person to abandon critical thinking and the laws of logic to reconcile their belief or beliefs and that creates an unhealthy cognitive dissonance. It’s literally replacing facts and knowledge with imagination and ignorance. How can our model of reality align with actual reality when we willingly engage in the practice of using faith in place of knowing? Our most accurate model of reality is based on facts. Faith doesn’t even make it in the building let alone get a seat at the table. That’s why I believe faith is self deception. When one willfully employs it they replace I don’t know, an honest answer, with extraordinary certitude. And that certitude has proven extremely harmful to individuals, humanity, and the earth. It may be just as much self harm as it is self deception since in every case it creates mental conflict. Again it doesn’t speak to whether something is true or not. It can’t. It has no explanatory power. It is merely the act of believing something without evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Evidence is objective facts that we'd expect to be true if your proposition is true and not otherwise or if some alternative was true instead. Regarding logic, a valid argument must make it impossible for its premises to be true and its conclusion false. To be sound it must be valid and have true premises.

There are objective facts surrounding my religion that we'd expect to be true if the religion is true and not true if some alternative was true instead. Regarding logic, it cannot be used to prove God exists or that a religion is true because the premises can never be proven to be true.

It is the claim of many religions that their holy books contain timeless truths, that aren't just for the time they were written. I see no logical problem with that if there is an omnipotent, omniscient god, so I don't see that your logic stands up without first accepting one of the central claims of your faith.

The spiritual truths of any true religion are timeless so they will always be true. I was not referring to those truths, I was referring to the primary message of the Messenger and the social teachings and laws that all religions have.

Spiritual truth is eternal and it will never be abrogated; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love God, love your neighbor, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. I believe that these spiritual truths are renewed in every age because the human virtues disappear and only the form of religion subsists.

“These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.” Some Answered Questions, p. 47

Whenever I say I believe that religion has to change in every new age to suit the times I am referring to two things:

(1) The primary message God reveals in every age which is correlated to the mission of the Prophet/Messenger.

Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind.

2) The social teachings and laws that pertain to the material world.

The second part of the religion refers to material things and it is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

“The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, p. 48

Which brings is right back to why a rational person would ever embark on such an investigation.

They would only embark on such an investigation if they wanted to know if God exists and if a religion is true.

Being omnipotent means it could show up in any form it wants. Appearing as an ordinary human is rather pathetic if it wants to get its message across.

Do you have any better ideas? How else could God convey messages to humans?

I think you're mistaking 'logical' as meaning that you find it reasonable in some way. I find it totally unconvincing.

I said: It is irrelevant that God is omnipotent. God is a spirit so God cannot 'show up' such that we can see Him with our physical eyes or hear Him with our physical ears. So what God does is manifest Himself in the person of the Messenger who is also referred to as a Manifestation of God. The Manifestation of God is a Messenger of God, a Servant of God, a Representative of God, and the Voice of God. He has many roles on Earth. Also, it is important to note that He is MORE than just a human, He has a twofold nature, a human nature and a divine nature, and that is why he can understand God and humans and why He has the unique capacity to act as an intermediary between God and humans.

What is illogical about any of what I said? What about it doesn't make sense to you?

So what was the reason you even started to take it seriously enough to look into?

Originally I looked into it because I liked the teachings. I was not searching for God or a religion at that time.
I explained how and why I became a Baha'i and what happened after that in this post: #739 Trailblazer

Haven't we already covered this? Because there is no prima facie reason to think there is any truth to be found in any religion or that there is such a thing as a 'Messenger'.

If you do not see any truth in any religion I think that is because of what has become of the older religions as is explained in this paragraph below. The older religions are in their winter seasons.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.”
(Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

Except they believe in different gods and not a small number of them, in more than one god. And it's still an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

The reason they all believe in a different God or more than one god is because they are mired in the past. Unless they read the latest update from God through Baha'u'llah stating that there is only one true God who revealed all the religions they will continue to believe in different Gods.

I didn't mean that it's literally hidden, it's hidden in the sense that it's just one amongst many supposed messages that contradict each other. I would expect a message from god to be absolutely, blindingly, obvious to everybody in the world. Anything else is unjust (if the message is important to us all).

Why would you expect a message from God to be absolutely, blindingly, obvious to everybody in the world? That is the hundred-dollar question. Why would God want it to be so if God existed?

But why would you? I've been told about countless religious and other apparently baseless beliefs. Life is way too short to look into all of them. I also find even the small part I've heard about here to be unbelievable for the reasons I've explained.

I was not suggesting you look at all the religions or even my religion, I was only saying it would not be difficult to read about it if you wanted to because all the information is readily available on the internet.

 

[Tiberius]

I understand how that sounded and I apologize but you did not know what I meant by need.

Obviously you need something you do not have in order to become a believer, because you would be a believer if you had what you need.

However, I believe that everyone has been given what they need, which is the capacity to believe in God, because if God had not given everyone the capacity to believe how could God expect people to believe?

Baha’u’llah wrote that we all have the capacity to believe in God, because otherwise we could not be held accountable.....

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

....but just because we all have the capacity that does not mean everyone will be able to utilize that capacity, and I am sure that God understands that. Since God is all-knowing God knows who made a sincere effort to believe and that is what really matters. Not everyone will be a believer for a very long time, but eventually the time will come when everyone in the world will be a believer. That was promised in the Bible and in the Baha'i Writings.

If I had what I needed to be a believer, then I would be a believer.

And you also seem to be saying, "Just believe, and once you are a believer, the proof will come to you." No, that's not how it works. I've had countless believers of many different faiths use this reasoning with me, and every single time, it means, "Just believe, and once you believe you'll be more inclined to accept as true that which supports your beliefs simply because you will want to believe it, and thus you won't be as critical when you judge the validity of it."

 

[Tiberius]

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

That was one of the five that you already provided, and we'd already agreed that this person fit those criteria.

What did I cherry pick?

We've discussed many times how you pick and choose the Bible verses that you can use for your own ends, and you ignore all the rest. I'm not going over it again.

It is an verse in the Bible that has been misinterpreted by Christians. There are other possible meanings to that verse and a Baha'i posted a thread about that verse so you can see the opinions other people had.

This is not about just my faith, it is about all other faiths that came after Christianity. Nothing could be more arrogant than the belief that Jesus is the Only Way for everyone for al time. Sorry you cannot see that is an untenable belief in light of the fact tat 22% of the world population are Muslims who believe that Muhammad was God's greatest Messenger and the Messenger for this age.

Lol, you try telling the Christians they are wrong about their own beliefs, see how well that goes for you.