Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
You are just egging her on. Yes, it was incomplete, but so what?
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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
But where's your evidence that you recognize for that. You sound like a parrot.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143
“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, pp. 105-106
My original claim was not wrong because we all have the capacity to appreciate the Beauty of God and since we all have a brain and a will we also have the capacity to be motivated to search for God, so we have everything we need.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Your view applies only to theists. Atheists searched and found nothing of the sort.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not have to say that capacity is enough. Capacity is enough since motivation is not separate from our capacity, it is part of our capacity.
#983 Trailblazer, 32 minutes ago
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Wow! You outsmarted me!I did not have to say that capacity is enough. Capacity is enough since motivation is not separate from our capacity, it is part of our capacity.
#983 Trailblazer, 32 minutes ago
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah is never wrong. It was complete. Motivation is not separate since motivation is part of our capacity.
So we have everything we need. If people are not motivated it is not because they cannot be motivated, it is because they choose not to motivate themselves.
#983 Trailblazer, 32 minutes ago
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I had to think on that a while. I knew that Baha'u'llah could not be wrong so I was 'motivated' to figure out why.
See what I just said to you after that this....
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes.
You do not know what my agenda is, only I know my agenda.
I do not even like being a Baha'i, so why would I want to maintain my beliefs?
I would not be worried even if my beliefs were wrong, because then I could become an atheist.
You don't think I would ever become a Christian do you?
Yet you cannot explain HOW I am inconsistent.
When I mentioned corruption I was not referring to the texts but yes, they are probably inaccurate.
We already covered this on another thread a while back. I do not have an opinion, I have a belief. My beliefs is based upon some of those facts about the religion, but they are also based upon logic applied to the facts and teachings of the religion.So you admit you have no facts to show things like Mr B was really a messenger of God, so all you have is an opinion that since these other things are true (that such a person actually existed, etc), Mr B's claims must also be true.
But this opinion isn't an opinion.
No, I provided an analysis of what the verse means in context. All you had was a personal opinion.
Fallacy of false equivalence. Jesus and God are not an aircraft.
But that doesn't mean that Jesus became God. A man cannot be God and God cannot be a man.
Rather, Jesus was a man who had a twofold nature, so He was both divine and human, a God-man.
Jesus did not appear in the form of God. God has no form so no man can appear in the form of God.
What happened was that the attributes of God appeared in the man Jesus.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God which means that the attributes of God were manifested in the man Jesus.
Wrong. Baha'u'llah's Writings represents the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah revealed 'additional truths' that are not in the Bible, so the concept of a Manifestation of God never existed in Christianity. As such Christians did not understand what a Manifestation of God was and they concluded that Jesus was God incarnate. Baha'u'llah made it clear that God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man and he explained why:
“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
No, I believe those passages were fictional stories, just as some Christians believe.
What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
"Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1
They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.
Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers."
Yet you have never been able to cite any of those passages.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, it could be, but in his time. Then, Allah sent Mirza Gholam Ahmad Kadiyani. Mirza Gholam Ahmad brought the latest message from Allah.
- If that is the fact then why are you continuing to be a Bahai? What compels you? Why are you wearing this mask? Is it because of some financial reason?
- How can your beliefs be wrong since you follow Bahaollah! And you said Bahaollah is never wrong!
Your posts are always so confusing. Do you even think about what you have written in your post?
- Read the lines above.
- What are these 'additional truths'?
- That is sort of unfortunate that Bahaollah cannot provide any proof of God or his own mission other than saying that he is Bahaollah.
- How is that any different from Bahais believing that there is a God and he sent a message through Bahaollah. That also could be fictional, a fiction created by Bahaollah himself!
- Well, you believe and say that Bab was the Mahdi, the returning Christ. Is that not plagiarized from Bible?
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samtonga43
Well-Known Member
From this link:
"Often, Baha’u’llah would recite verses aloud, and these would be transcribed by secretaries. Eyewitness accounts of individuals who observed the manner by which Baha’u’llah’s writings were revealed shed light on the extraordinary nature of these works. To keep up with the large volume of verses, secretaries would rapidly transcribe His words in an often illegible handwriting that only they could read, referred to as “Revelation Writing.” The exhibition includes an example of these original texts."
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Don't you mean:--
"Any bits and pieces that I ignore are the bits and pieces that I believe man added or changed or misinterpreted such that the religions became corrupted." ?
After all, you and the B.Man might be wrong. Stranger things have happened.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am well aware that Baha'u'llah did not write everything in His own pen. Sometimes He had a secretary to whom He dictated as He spoke. After the tablets were completed Baha'u'llah thoroughly read everything that was was written and stamped it with His official seal.
As I recall, after Baha'u'llah was poisoned by His enemies the second time He suffered from a tremor in His hands and was unable to write very well.
Was Baha'u'llah poisoned? - Quora
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
^^^ Now, how does that make it an uncorrupted mesaage? And then, what proof that they were not written at later time by various people and published as the writings of Bahaollah? As Samtonga43 says - Stranger things have happened.
The seal was with the family. It might be with your House of Justice now. They could stamp any paper with the seal.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that the religions were corrupted by man just because Baha'u'llah wrote that. Baha'i scholars and other scholars have also written about what was added and changed in these religions. It is rather obvious to me that the older religions have been changed by man over the course of time. Baha'u'llah simply confirmed that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I continue to be a Baha'i because I know Baha'u'llah brought the truth from God.
What compels me is wanting to do right by God.
I am not wearing any mask, I have always been open and above board with everyone.
I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was ever wrong.
The additional truths are what was not revealed in the Bible or the Qur'an.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
"I would not be worried even if my beliefs were wrong, because then I could become an atheist.
You don't think I would ever become a Christian do you?"
So, you you visualize that you could be wrong.
If there is no problem in your becoming an atheist, what is the problem in becoming a Christian. Atheists have no God. Christians have the same God as yours, though you do not recognize Jesus as a God and they do not recognize Bahaollah as a messenger.
Like with all other religions, you are at cross with Christians.
"Additional Truths": I was asking you if you could mention two or three of these 'additional truths'.
You don't think I would ever become a Christian do you?"
So, you you visualize that you could be wrong.
If there is no problem in your becoming an atheist, what is the problem in becoming a Christian. Atheists have no God. Christians have the same God as yours, though you do not recognize Jesus as a God and they do not recognize Bahaollah as a messenger.
Like with all other religions, you are at cross with Christians.
"Additional Truths": I was asking you if you could mention two or three of these 'additional truths'.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
As far as "organized" religions go, and religions that claim to be from an all-knowing and all-loving God, the Baha'i Faith isn't too bad. And I'm sure the world would be better off following some of their precepts. But... what's troubling is that they do exactly what your saying they do. Here's the beginning of Acts chapter 1...
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
This creates several problems for Baha'is. So are these verses allegorical, man-made, false additions? Did the early Church misinterpret them? Baha'is can use any of these to make these verses say or mean whatever the Baha'is want them to mean... or to be totally false. Since who wrote this stuff anyway? Some guy named Luke? Was he even an eyewitness?6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Anyway, in verse one it says Jesus showed himself alive. Baha'is say that Jesus never came back to life. He's dead and stayed dead. The resurrection verses are allegorical. Here's Abdul Baha's interpretation...
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Then it talks about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This sets up what comes up later at Pentecost. The disciples get filled with the Holy Spirit. For Christians this is the fulfillment of the coming of the "Comforter" But, for the Baha'is, that's not what any of this means. When Jesus said that a Comforter was coming, Baha'is say that he was referring to the coming of Baha'u'llah 2000 years later.Then another thing Baha'is make allegorical, Jesus is taken up into the sky. But, it also says this "same" Jesus will come back. This and any other verse that makes it sound like Jesus will return, for the Baha'is, is wrong. They interpret it in a way that satisfies them. And, for them, that's all they need, because their guy, Baha'u'llah, and their religion, The Baha'i Faith, can't be wrong. Therefore, it's all the other religions that are wrong. But, they say, the non-existent "original" teachings of all the messengers all taught the truth about God. It was the followers of the religion that screwed it all up and brought in false teachings and beliefs that contradict the things the Baha'i Faith teaches. And who knows, maybe so. But it sure makes God look like an idiot to have sent so many messengers that didn't write down the message themselves but let others write it and get it wrong. And then let others add in and misinterpret those writings.
So, for me, even though Baha'is say they believe in all the other religions... there isn't really that much that they believe about any of them. Of course except for a few bits and pieces.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Not much, huh? Just a few bits and pieces?
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 109
“Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muḥammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 110
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I did not have to say that capacity is enough. Capacity is enough since motivation is not separate from our capacity, it is part of our capacity.
#983 Trailblazer, 32 minutes ago
If we all have the capacity to be a believer, and capacity alone is enough...
...why are there atheists at all?