Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

God sent three messengers since Jesus?
I Googled 'differences between Jesus and Mohammed' and got 7,760,000 hits.
Try it.

How is that relevant?

 

[Trailblazer]

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

Who said the above?
Wasn't the B.Man a manifestation of God?

Baha'u'llah said that Manifestations of God can say they are God ONLY in the sense that they manifest God's attributes.
What about THAT do you NOT understand?

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God, He disclaimed being God.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

 

[Trailblazer]

No. You believe you KNOW. You are mistaken. You believe, but have convinced your self that this belief is knowledge. It's not.

You have no right to tell me what I believe or know or what I have convinced myself of.
How arrogant for you to speak for me that way. You have no way of knowing what I know because you are not me.

Knowledge about God comes from God and that is where I got it. You cannot take it away from me by saying I don't have it.

“Know verily that Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire. The one is guided by the principle: “Fear ye God; God will teach you;” 29 the other is but a confirmation of the truth: “Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator.” The former bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but arrogance, vainglory and conceit.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 69

 

[Trailblazer]

The Gospel message has everything we need for all time.
"I am the first and the last" (Isa. 44:6)
"From everlasting to everlasting thou art God" (Ps. 90:2)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8, NIV)

God is all we need for all time but Jesus is not God so those verses don't refer to Jesus.
Try telling the 1.8 billion Muslims in the world that the gospel message is "everything we need for all time."

There is nothing any one of us can do to thwart the Will of God. Even Mr.B.

Baha'u'llah carried out the Will of God, He did not thwart it. It is Christians who are trying to thwart the Will of God by rejecting Baha'u'llah but it will never work so why keep trying?

 

[PruePhillip]

How is that relevant?

It is super, highly relevant.
These men bring different, contrary messages - so who then is God, someone made
up in our own image?

If these men are all sent from God then there is no God.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is super, highly relevant.
These men bring different, contrary messages - so who then is God, someone made
up in our own image?

If these men are all sent from God then there is no God.

Why would God only have one message, the same message for all of time, given humans and the world they live in change dramatically over time?

 

[PruePhillip]

Why would God only have one message, the same message for all of time, given humans and the world they live in change dramatically over time?

So if a new prophet arises today, one preaching environmentalism,
would YOU suspect this 'god' has been created to cater to our own
fashions of thought? And if the god panders to our fashions of thought
then surely it has been created in our own minds?

 

[CG Didymus]

Daniel 12 explains why the Christians would misinterpret and thus misunderstand the Bible.

Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it:

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

That's you saying that the whole Bible, and the NT? Are all sealed? So I ask...

So when did this happen?
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. It is from whenever the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination set up that the 2300 evenings and mornings and the 1290 days starts. Yet, Abdul Baha starts It with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Why does that make sense?

Sorry, I am not going around that block again. The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing.

Then this is your response? You continue to say things based on Baha'i beliefs and can't back them up. You always say, "That's illogical". Well how logical is it that a couple of verses in Daniel would make all the books of the Bible sealed? And then it would seal the NT too? Go ahead believe what you want to believe but it makes it difficult for some of use to take the Baha'i Faith seriously when some of its members can't and won't answer basic questions. Basic question... When was the daily sacrifice stopped and the abomination set up? If you can show that was when the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem, then fine. Do it. If not, then I'm afraid Baha'is are making up things to make prophecies end when they want them to.

 

[CG Didymus]

When did I ever tell atheists they are unreasonable?

And when did I ever say that you told Atheists they are being unreasonable. Read what I said again.

Lots of us agree with the Baha'is in their criticism of Christianity. But the things Baha'is believe in as true are similar. They are unprovable things. So why put your trust in them? And when people call the Baha'is out on those things, their answers are very similar to what Christians say to support their beliefs in the Bible and in Jesus. But you know this. Yet, you still talk to Atheists as if they are being unreasonable? Just because they questions your religion like you question Christians and theirs. God parted the seas. God is going to cast Satan into hell. God raised Jesus from the dead. Sure, probably not true. But now we are expected to believe God sent a new messenger? And some of us say... "Yeah, prove it." And you can't.

So, let me ask, do you think they are being reasonable when they expect objective facts and provable evidence about Baha'u'llah being a messenger of God?

 

[CG Didymus]

According to Bahia beliefs, this statement:
“The Spirit of Truth came, almost 2000 years before the B,man was ever heard of.”...
is just a belief.

Look at the bolded words and think, Tb. Logically.

What you believe is just a "belief" meaning it's not based on anything factual. The Baha'i Faith, to her, is true and from God, so having a belief in what the Baha'i Faith teaches is true. But I might be wrong, since it is just my belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if a new prophet arises today, one preaching environmentalism,
would YOU suspect this 'god' has been created to cater to our own
fashions of thought? And if the god panders to our fashions of thought
then surely it has been created in our own minds?

A true prophet would not preach environmentalism because that is not religion, that is science.
No, a true prophet would not cater to our fashions of thought, he would only reveal what God told him to reveal, which would be for the benefit of humanity.

 

[night912]

Why would God only have one message, the same message for all of time, given humans and the world they live in change dramatically over time?

Perhaps the reason is the same one as him only having one way of Communication between himself and humans, eventhough humans and the world they live in change dramatically over time.

Maybe God has only one reason for it, "One message, One method?

 

[CG Didymus]

I didn't realize that they say that Adam was a manifestation. This makes no sense. Are you sure they believe this?

He's left off most of their lists, but Abraham is always on there. Here's one thing I found...

The Adamic Cycle inaugurated 6000 years ago by the Manifestation of God called Adam is only one of the many bygone cycles. Bahá’u’lláh, as you say, is the culmination of the Adamic Cycle. He is also the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle. Obviously there must have been Prophets and Manifestations in the ages preceding the Adamic Cycle. This is supported by the following statement revealed by Bahá’u’lláh.

Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 500​

Here's another one that mentions Adam...

Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself, were included in this definition.
​

Here's something else I had forgotten about. Baha'u'llah said that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed...

Genesis 22:9—Sacrifice of Ishmael
"As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá’u’lláh's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael: Although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá’u’lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur'án, which book is more authentic than the Bible including both the New and the Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'án, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, July 28, 1936: Bahá’í News, No. 103, p. 1, October 1936)​

Here's a quote about Noah...

Noah was a Manifestation of God
"...consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life."

(Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, par. 162)​

But it all becomes virtually meaningless. The Adam and Noah in the Baha'i writings are way different than what the Bible says about them. Here's something from Baha'u'llah about Noah...

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books.​

I don't think the Bible was one of those books... 'Cause that's not the story of Noah that I remember.

 

[Truthseeker]

A true prophet would not preach environmentalism because that is not religion, that is science.
No, a true prophet would not cater to our fashions of thought, he would only reveal what God told him to reveal, which would be for the benefit of humanity.

Environmentalism, to be clear to everyone, is a good thing, in my opinion. But a prophet probably wouldn't teach that. We can find that out for ourselves. He can facilitate that, though, by teaching the independent investigation of truth like in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's you saying that the whole Bible, and the NT? Are all sealed? So I ask...
Then this is your response? You continue to say things based on Baha'i beliefs and can't back them up. You always say, "That illogical". Well how logical is it that a couple of verses in Daniel would make all the books of the Bible sealed?

I back up everything I say.

I never said the entire Bible was sealed or that Christians did not understand anything in the Bible. From one of my posts:

I am not saying that Christians did not understand anything in the Bible, I am saying that they did not fully understand the Bible... As Daniel said, we will know more in the future, in 2300 years:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And then it would seal the NT too? Go ahead believe what you want to believe but it makes it difficult for some of use to take the Baha'i Faith seriously when some of its members can't and won't answer basic questions. Basic question... When was the daily sacrifice stopped and the abomination set up? If you can show that was when the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem, then fine. Do it. If not, then I'm afraid Baha'is are making up things to make prophecies end when they want them to.

That is certainly not a basic question that Baha'is are required to answer.

I don't have to answer that and it is not my responsibility as a Baha'i. Do you see any other Baha'is answering it? Truthseeker9 said he is not going to answer it again because he already discussed that with you,. Why do you continue to hound me? You are not going to manipulate me into answering it by pressuring me. I don't have the answer and I don't care about the answer, I told you that many times before. Do you really think that just because I cannot figure out what some Bible prophecy means that disproves the entire Baha'i Faith? Talk about illogical..

Do you really think I care if anyone on this forum takes the Baha'i Faith seriously? Do you really think that I think that anything I say would make one iota of difference? Do you really think I care whether you think the Baha'is are making things up? Think again. I know who Baha'u'llah is, I have known for over 50 years, long before I ever read one page of the Bible.

How people choose to interpret Bible verses to try to make their beliefs true is never going to change my beliefs. Anyone can use the Bible prophecies to try to prove or disprove whatever they want to try to prove or disprove about the return of Christ and the messiah.

 

[night912]

A true prophet would not preach environmentalism because that is not religion, that is science.

If the previous prophet preached that humans should accept science, maybe the new prophet would preach science because humanity entered a new era in which all of humanity had accepted science and abandoned religion. If science is the new era, why would the new prophet preach something that is no longer relevant to humanity in that era?

No, a true prophet would not cater to our fashions of thought, he would only reveal what God told him to reveal, which would be for the benefit of humanity.

Would it not benefit humanity if the natural environment is preserved and/or improve?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, let me ask, do you think they are being reasonable when they expect objective facts and provable evidence about Baha'u'llah being a messenger of God?

I think they are being reasonable when they expect objective facts and evidence about Baha'u'llah.
I think they are being unreasonable if they expect objective proof that Baha'u'llah got messages from God.
In fact, if they insist upon such proof I think they are acting like a child who wants a lollipop.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you all are being to harsh on @TB.

She has also stated many times, she is here for entertainment purposes, not to convince any one else she has the truth about all things God or the proof that her religion is the "truth".

I find it hard to believe she is not trying to convince others that their religion is wrong and hers is right. When she says things like this...

God has sent three new Messengers with three new messages since Jesus - Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The gospel message is like old news and is not what humanity needs is this New Day.

This is not prefaced by saying, "It is my belief..." She states it... "God has sent..." As if it is true. And that the "gospel message is like old news"? Sure sounds like she's trying to convince somebody of something. And she has no problem dishing out a little harshness herself. But, I'm sure, she means it with love.

 

[night912]

I think they are being reasonable when they expect objective facts and evidence about Baha'u'llah.
I think they are being unreasonable if they expect objective proof that Baha'u'llah got messages from God.
In fact, if they insist upon such proof I think they are acting like a child who wants a lollipop.

So you think they are being reasonable when they expect objective facts and evidence that Baha'u'llah got messages from God?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think they are being reasonable when they expect objective facts and evidence about Baha'u'llah.
I think they are being unreasonable if they expect objective proof that Baha'u'llah got messages from God.
In fact, if they insist upon such proof I think they are acting like a child who wants a lollipop.

I don't because, allegedly, the old religions had all sorts of miraculous things happen to "prove" God existed. Like Elijah when he had God send down fire and consume his animal sacrifice. The prophets of Baal cried out to their false god and nothing happened to their sacrifice. But Baha'is don't necessarily believe those things literally happened, so poof goes Bible stories as some sort of proof. And I know Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah could have and did do some miracles but he didn't want people to believe because of those things... Which is kind of cool. Except God is still going to make things so bad for people that they have no choice but to turn to the Baha'is... or so I was told. Is that true? And if so, then God kind of does prove he is real by punishing all of us that refused to heed his call.