Tiberius
Well-Known Member
His self as the messenger and his works as the messenger are also not yet supported and so can not be used as evidence.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
- Thread starter infrabenji
- Start date
His self as the messenger and his works as the messenger are also not yet supported and so can not be used as evidence.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking of the people who look at the evidence and do not 'know'. Have they interpreted the evidence differently from you?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, they have. We do not all see things the same way, no matter what it is, because we are all different in how we see things.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
So perhaps they do 'know' and you do not. Any possibility of this?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
No One Knows That Day and Hour
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
The B.Man's been rejected? Common sense prevailed?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe we will all find out what we 'knew' and whether it was the truth after we die...
Notice I did not say I know, I said I believe, because only God knows what exactly happens to us after we die.
Meanwhile....
The hundred-dollar question is WHY what I believe or know bothers you so much?
I do not go chasing after Christians on different threads questioning them about what they believe.
They have a right to believe what they believe, and if they told me they know, it would not bother me one bit. What they believe or know is their own business. It does not threaten me in any way because I am completely secure in what I believe and know. As I have said before, I do not think that certitude comes from me.
So what is your problem? Why do you need to hound me? Only you have the answer to that, or maybe you don't know.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's right. Nobody knew the day or the hour, but some people figured out the year.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, because it makes no 'sense' to reject a Manifestation of God.
If I may jump in here….
What are your thoughts on
Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia ?
Look under “reported apparitions”, there are a couple good “critical thinkers” mentioned.
And Lincoln’s ‘ghost’ certainly isn’t the only one.
What about the many members on RF here, who have interactions with their spirit guides? And gods? (BTW, I am not one. But there’s too many, on this forum alone, to dismiss.)
There’s something going on.
In consideration of these things…wouldn’t it be more reasonable to call oneself an agnostic, rather than an atheist? That just sounds, idk, adamant.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Further to the above:
Do Atheism people trust Atheism?
I understand that they have but to trust Atheism.
We can't say the Atheism people don't trust Atheism or they distrust Atheism.
Right?
Regards
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The United Nations is a step in the same direction but it is not really the same. Look at the difference.
The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights.
History of the UN | United Nations Seventieth Anniversary
"In His Epistles He asked the parliaments of the world to send their wisest and best men to an international world conference which should decide all questions between the peoples and establish universal peace. This would be the highest court of appeal," – The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 388.
No, that is not what I am saying at all. The goal of Jesus is what Jesus stated in the New Testament:
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith did not state the goal of Jesus. He was simply putting the revelations Jesus and Baha'u'llah in a historical context and speaking in terms of social evolution. I can understand why you thought that since I paraphrased what he said and it was taken out of context. Below is the full quote:
“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less proclaimed or established. What other interpretation can be given to these words, addressed specifically by Bahá’u’lláh to the followers of the Gospel, in which the fundamental distinction between the Mission of Jesus Christ, concerning primarily the individual, and His own Message, directed more particularly to mankind as a whole, has been definitely established: 120 “Verily, He [Jesus] said: ‘Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become the quickeners of mankind.’”
The Promised Day Is Come, Religion and Social Evolution, pp. 119-121
Jesus was only responsible for Step 1, which was to glorify God (John 17:4) and bear witness unto the truth about God (John 18:37). Jesus finished Step 1 and that is why Jesus said He was no more in the world (John 17:11).
By revealing God and releasing the Holy Spirit into the world, Jesus laid the necessary foundation that would later enable humans to build the Kingdom of God on earth. Jesus was the Herald of the Kingdom, He was never slated to return and build that Kingdom on earth as most Christians believe.
Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom
The mission of Baha'u'llah was to reveal what will be necessary for humans to build the Kingdom of God on earth.
That is Step 2.
No, Jesus' work is what is delineated in the New Testament, as noted above. Sorry for the confusion.
I don't know what you mean, change people how?
I would not call it an aversion, let's just say that porn is not exactly in keeping with the teachings of the Baha'i Faith, although it is not prohibited. No, people should never be put in situations they did not agree to.
No, that is not the case. Since Baha’u’llah wrote these tablets in the present age (Age X), both of the statements are someone speaking in the present age (Age X).
There are three ages being referred to:
1. Ages X-1 = the previous age (Age of Muhammad, 610 AD – 1852 AD)
2. Age X = the present age (Age of Baha’u’llah, 1852 AD – 2852 AD)
3. Age X+1 = a future age (Age of the next Messenger of God, any time after 2852 AD)
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions (Age X) can never be the same as that which a subsequent age (Age X+1) may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day (Age X) should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before (Age X-1). How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
If you want more specifics, here you go: the false Christian doctrines
And I can have my cake and eat it too. That is the beauty of the Baha'i Faith.
Last edited:
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
LOL! Literalism rules!
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
It makes sense to reject someone who thinks he is a manifestation of God
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
You said this recently, and have often said something similar:
"I know because I have looked at the evidence".
Why do you assume that what you believe bothers me at all?The hundred-dollar question is WHY what I believe or know bothers you so much?
Why do you assume that I have a problem?So what is your problem?
Why do you need to hound me? Only you have the answer to that, or maybe you don't know.
Why do you assume that I need to hound you?
I am responding to YOUR posts, Tb. That's how forums generally work.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It can also be understood from the points of view of all these religions which are all valid because spiritual truth is the same in all the religions and it is eternal.
No, it is not a claim, I have just verified for myself that Baha'u'llah's claims are true. I make no claims because I have nothing to claim.
I cannot know what is going in subconsciously because it is not conscious. Why do you think I would be biased by my subconscious? If that was the case the same would apply to anyone who believed anything because everyone has a subconscious mind, so where does that leaves us?
That analogy absolutely DOES NOT apply to religion. What you are suggesting is that if many people checked out the evidence and they believe then it is more likely to be true and that is the fallacy of ad populum.
You bet your life that I am NOT going to believe that Jesus is God or that Jesus rose from the dead because millions of people believe those things. That is the worst reason to believe anything.
Give it up for lost. Your bias is impossible to break through because you can't even see it. Did you even read the passage I posted before you formed an opinion? No you just jumped to conclusions as to what He meant, another fallacy. Baha'u'llah WAS NOT telling us how to recognize Him; He was telling us how to recognize a Manifestation of God. He was saying not to go by what other people say or do but rather you should investigate for yourself. That was the only criteria He gave.
If you cannot understand why peer review does not work for religion after I explained it I give up.
We never want to believe something just because our peers believe it, we only want to believe it because we have determined it is true for ourselves. Science is completely different because we are dealing with subject matter that can be proven by objective means, tests and end experiments. so we want to see if others have come up with the same findings.
Just give me an example of how you think peer review would work for religion and how that would lead someone to discover the truth about Baha'u'llah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The sources are not the claim! The claim is IN some of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but I told you what we are supposed to look at as evidence that supports the claim. You need to look at His Person, His Life, what He accomplished during His Mission on earth, and what He revealed (His teachings). Of course that is presented by the Baha'i Faith because the Baha'is are the people who have the documented information about Baha'u'llah which was passed down by Baha'is who lived in the 19th century! The Baha'i Faith organization has also documented everything that has happened in the Baha'i Faith every step of the way since that time.
Please show me that Jesus is who He claimed to be without referring to the New Testament.
How would we know who Jesus was, if He was who He claimed to be? We would look at what we can find about His Person, His Life, what He accomplished during His Mission on earth, and what He revealed (His teachings). All that is in the New Testament.
You are so biased that it is impossible to break through your bias. You can't think logically with that kind of bias. You imagine that there are people trying to fool you. No, I am just telling you where the information is located. Where do you think you are going to get 'accurate information' about the Baha'i Faith, from other religions that disagree with us such as Jews, Christians, or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists? Why would they give you accurate information? Is a Chevy dealer going to tell you how great Fords are?
The information closest to the Source is always the most accurate and that is why the Bible is the most accurate Source of information if you want to know about Christianity.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, but that is the best evidence.
If you are trying to decide if you want to vote for a certain person for President you would look at the character of the person and what they have accomplished in their lives, particularly in their political career. You might also look at what they wrote if they wrote any papers or books.
You would not know how good of a President he or she would be until he or she got into office, but you would still vote based upon what you know.
Why would the process of assessing and deciding if a man a Messenger be any different?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Have you had a chance to look at post #1413. It has Baha'i quotes about Adam and Noah being manifestations. I'm wondering what you think about them.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why? If He was a Manifestation of God of course He would have to know that. Why would He keep it secret? What good would His revelation be to humanity if nobody believed He was sent by God?
Imagine if Jesus never claimed that God sent Him, what impact would Jesus have made?
Should we also reject Jesus because He thought He was God, as you believe?
What more evidence do you have that shows that Jesus was God than I have that shows that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God?