Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

It matters because it makes the gospel stories a lie. Calling everything that happened after he was killed allegorical is just taking the easiest way out, so Baha'is can say they "believe" in the gospels.

We can say anything we want to say and we say it because we believe what is in the NT, just not the resurrection story.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Why do you single Baha'is out when you well know that many Christians nowadays do not believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? What you are doing, treating Bahais *differently* than other people is inequitable:

“Tell, O ‘Alí, the loved ones of God that equity is the most fundamental among human virtues. The evaluation of all things must needs depend upon it.” Gleanings, p. 203

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station.” Gleanings, p. 204

Apparently, it's working. Baha'is really seem to think they believe in Jesus and the NT.

You have absolutely no right to tell Baha'is what they believe in, but you keep doing it anyway.

But no, Baha'is need them to be true... and false at the same time. And in your mind, how do you make sense of that and convince yourself that is true?

The Baha'is do not need the Bible stories to be true because many of them are allegorical and even if they sound true, we know they are not true because of what Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah wrote. Maybe some of them are true, but so what? It has no bearing on whether or not the Baha'i Faith is true.

Case closed.

But you will open it up again, and I will be foolish enough to answer it. Do yo ever get tired of repeating the same things over and over again? What do you think you are going to accomplish? Go ahead and accuse me of saying the same things over and over again, but please bear in mind that the only reason I say the same things is because you say the same things over and over and over again.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly. Like the Book of Mormon. I've never heard a Baha'i say anything bad about Mormons, but I've never heard a Baha'i support the belief that the Book of Mormon is true.

That is because Shoghi Effendi said that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet of God. He was a seer but not a Prophet.

Bahá’í Views of Mormonism

Joseph Smith is not considered by Bahá’ís to be a Manifestation of God or Lesser Prophet:

Regarding your question concerning Joseph Smith and the ‘Book of Mormon’; as the Bahá’í Teachings quite clearly outline the succession of Prophets from the day of Christ as being Muhammad. the Báb, and finally Bahá’u’lláh, it is obvious that Joseph Smith is not a Manifestation of God. (Bahá'í News416 [Nov. 1965]: 15)

Regarding your questions: we cannot possibly add names of people we (or anyone else) think might be Lesser Prophets to those found in the Qur’án, the Bible and our own Scriptures. For only these can we consider authentic Books. Therefore, Joseph Smith is not in our eyes a Prophet. (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to individual, 13 March 1950)

Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet. (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)

Smith may, however, have been a “seer”—someone of unusual spiritual insight—who was attuned to the spiritual currents of the time. Ramona Brown records in her notes that Shoghi Effendi remarked, “Joseph Smith was a seer, not a Prophet of God, neither major nor minor Prophet.” The Universal House of Justice writes of Joseph Smith that “he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century” (from a letter written on its behalf, 7 Feb. 1977).

The Book of Mormon is not considered an authentic revealed scripture. Its supposed historicity is, according to Shoghi Effendi, “a matter for historians to pass upon” (High Endeavours 71).

Mormonism and the Bahá’í Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, let's go with the assumption that the writers made that up, since it is one of the things that Christians use to make Jesus into God. Let's also assume God is real and the supreme judge. Only he would be able to forgive people for the bad and evil things they did. In other religions people had to pay the penalty for their own evil deeds.

Jesus said He had the power to forgive sins and Baha'u'llah confirmed that, so that is good enough for me.
Of course, God can also forgive our sins if He chooses to do do.

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

 

[Trailblazer]

What's so bad about just saying that people made up prophets and Gods and laws that they attributed to God just to get people to obey. But Baha'is don't take all religions and do that. I've asked about the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Aztec, the Greek religions. Some of those religions had dying and rising God/men. They had flood stories and fire be cast down from heaven stories. Why not take those religions and say that "originally" they all taught about the one true God, but people messed them up.

Simple, because they never taught about the one true God and then messed up later.
Baha'is do not believe those were ever true religions since they were not revealed by a true Messenger of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But then again, we don't take those stories as being literally true.

That's right.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it unreasonable to expect that there should be something that proves that Baha'u'llah is sent from God? Is it unreasonable that there is some proof that there even is a God?

Both of those expectations are unreasonable.

There is evidence, not proof, because that is the way God wanted it to be.

If we tell you what we believe the evidence is and you reject that evidence there is no more that Baha'u'llah expected of us. As Baha'is we have done the job that we were assigned as soon as we deliver the message of Baha'u'llah. We are under no obligation to prove to people that it is the truth. Moreover, some of us Baha'is have done more than we are expected to do. Since the messahe of Baha'u'llah has been refused numerous times we should have left those who refused it to themselves. But no, some of us are foolish enough to keep responding.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

 

[Trailblazer]

And was humanity ready? I asked before... what about all the environmental problems we are having because we invented so much stuff that is polluting the world? Gee, thanks God... especially for nuclear bombs and missile technology.

You should be saying, gee, thanks humans, because humans are responsible for inventing and using these things that pollute the world and caused climate change.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is are faced with disproving other religion's concept of God

No, we are not responsible for that. Our only duty is to *deliver* the message of Baha'u'llah.

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

 

[Trailblazer]

I've been writing posts as fast as I can. Am I getting closer to being a prophet or something?

No, but as much as you can write you'd make a good Baha'i if you would ever get off the fence.

 

[samtonga43]

If God is a loving and just God, it is IMpossible that only one religion is the Truth from God and that is Christianity.

Nothing is impossible with God.

It is IMpossible that a loving and just God would reveal only one true religion and that 67% of the world population will not have any eternal life.

See above.

This is logically impossible if God is a loving and just God.

See above.
Just because YOU think it is logically impossible, does not mean that it is logically impossible.

There are so many reasons why Christianity as it is commonly believed (e.g. Jesus is the Only Way) cannot be true. This is just one reason, probably the most important reason.

And yet…
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. Jesus

One cannot make a newer religion like the Baha’i Faith *fit* into the same mold as the older religions such as Judaism or Christianity because Baha'i is a much more expansive revelation and has many more components that the older religions did not have; so Baha’i cannot be made to fit into the Bible mold.

Expansive? The B.man’s words are nowhere near as relevant to the human condition as is the Word.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”

Let’s use the language of today, shall we, rather than that of the 17th century? This is ‘the Modern Age’, after all, is it not? Let’s move forward, not back.
“And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.” Jesus

Jesus was right, as that is what actually happens... Christians or Jews or any older religious believers who have drunk the old wine do not desire the new Baha’i wine; they say the old is better. That is why we do not see a massive increase in Baha’is.

Eisegesis again. You are forcing the text to say what suits your fancy. What’s more, you have unwittingly ‘shot yourself in the foot’. As usual, you have not asked the contextual questions which would help you to understand what is going on in this situation. Your interpretation is a perfect ‘own goal’.
Please read all of Luke 5.
Ask yourself:
What was happening in the first 32 verses?
What questions were asked?
Who asked the questions?
How did those who asked the questions feel about Jesus?
Why did they ask these questions?

No, the prophecies are not obvious because Jews and Christians have already misinterpreted the prophecies to suit their fancy and they are SURE they are RIGHT. They have both made the Messiah in their own image; the slight problem is that their Messiah has not come and He is not coming because He has already come in the Person of Baha’u’llah.

The B.man is the Messiah? Evidence?
(Ooops, I forgot – you don’t have any).

 

[samtonga43]

No, but as much as you can write you'd make a good Baha'i if you would ever get off the fence.

Hmmm.. interesting. What makes you think CG Didymus is 'on the fence'?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sure, lots of people believe he is sent from God... Because he wrote fast and was a nice and generous guy?

I like to consider how God has always sent a Messenger offering Love and unity and when that is refused by that generation, the warning of the consequences are then given. These warnings then remain for future generations.

Those that accept the Message, do so for the Love and the unity offered, but also join in sharing the warnings of the consequences that we bring upon ourselves by not responding to the help offered by God.

So as I see we are now facing the consequences of another rejected Messenger, the better question CG is to ask why people have not embraced such a logical message of our Oneness as humanity and that we actually only do have One God.

Of course, all that is IMHO. (It is up to all others to consider if Baha'u'llah has warned us)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm.. interesting. What makes you think CG Didymus is 'on the fence'?

Well, CG has been asking the same questions getting the same replies for over the 3 years I have been here.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

Do you always have to have something negative to say about me? Progress is being made insinuates that I need to make progress.
Do I say things like that to you? I might think certain things bot that is not the same as saying them

Do you preface everything you say with "It appears to me?"
The very day that everyone on this forum prefaces what they say with "It appears to me" will be the day I do the same.
That is called equity.

“Tell, O ‘Alí, the loved ones of God that equity is the most fundamental among human virtues. The evaluation of all things must needs depend upon it.” Gleanings, p. 203

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station.” Gleanings, p. 204

I do not KNOW if you are being influenced, only YOU know that. That is why I said "It appears to me that..."
The reason I thought that you might have been influenced from what is said on this forum is because you said the following:

"In fact, before posting here, my original impression of Baha'i teachings was more positive than it is now."

I am being influenced by you, Tb. Only you.

 

[samtonga43]

Well, CG has been asking the same questions getting the same replies for over the 3 years I have been here.

Regards Tony

OK, but why does this make you think that she/he is on the fence?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And was humanity ready? I asked before... what about all the environmental problems we are having because we invented so much stuff that is polluting the world? Gee, thanks God... especially for nuclear bombs and missile technology.

I see God's plan is not so simplistic CG.

God knows our beginning and our end in the journey that has been given to discover the power of the Spirit within.

As such in this evolution as the human species, before each crisis we bring upon ourselves, God puts a Messenger amongst us to remind us that we are more than human. When we reject that Message, we are warned that the consequences of turning away from our spiritual journey, back to the world of nature, will reek upon us the destruction of animal instincts, the survival of the fittest.

There are powers way beyond atomic energy, be thankful they can not be discovered before we are united, as they would destroy this planet, Atomic energy is a lesson of the wrong way to use what is available to us. The world is teaching us what happens when we turn toward our own self and forget God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

OK, but why does this make you think that she/he is on the fence?

That is just a saying for this exact type of situation. Let CG offer how he sees it

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I first had to investigate the religion and come to believe the religion was true, and after that I learned about spiritual reality.

And for those that study a different religion come to believe in a different spiritual reality. So is it reality? A very common Christian "reality" is that Satan was an archangel named "lucifer" and then he rebelled and fell. God, for some reason cast him and his fallen angel followers down to Earth. Fortunately, Jesus is going to do away with them. Those Christians believe that is true and are told to "witness" to the poor lost souls that don't know that spiritual reality. But then Buddhists have a different spiritual reality. Hindus have a different one. Believers in Islam, a different one. Jews a different one. And yet, Baha'is say that the "spiritual" teachings of the messengers doesn't change, only the social laws and teachings. But you don't have to tell what the Baha'i explanation is... We've all heard it. "They followers of the manifestation messed up the original message.

Which should be easy to prove. Let's compare the original message to the later corrupted one. What's that? There is no original message? Hmmm? So the only way we know what the original message was is by going by what Baha'u'llah said that original message was.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And for those that study a different religion come to believe in a different spiritual reality. So is it reality?

The Key is CG there is Relative Truth, but the source is One.

The differences are our frames of references, our relative truth.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Just because @Truthseeker hasn't shown you what you are missing out on that does not mean you are not missing out on anything. That is illogical.

What are we missing by not being Baha'is? I knew Baha'is. I heard and saw how their Local Spiritual Assembly worked. I saw how there were some very strict and conservative and very administrative types of Baha'is that were more likely to get elected onto the Assembly. The liberal, very easy going Baha'is tended to be more active in doing the teaching of the Faith. I saw how the more successful and well attended Fireside meetings were run by more charismatic people. I saw how too many Baha'is got left out, were alienated, and eventually became inactive. I was with my Baha'i friends were they went on mass teaching trips. They went door to door inviting people to a meeting to learn about the Baha'i Faith. When the people asked, "What is the Baha'i Faith?" That opened the door to "teach" them. 'Cause to proselytize would be wrong.

There were some excellent meetings, though. The best one was San Francisco Peace Conference. I lived in Southern California then. Now that I'm in Northern California, I've never heard of any big meeting or conference. What are Baha'is doing? Their Peace Statement went out more than 30 years ago. What happened?