ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[Willamena]

Do you think that this brings us to a position on the abortion issue?

I can't speak for "us" but it brings me to a position of being against abortion, though not in favour of legislation.

What I get out of what you wrote is that because "humanity" is a social construct, when it comes down to it, the only real definition of "human" we have is the one that we've agreed to as a society, right?

I'm a bit more perspectivist than that. The only real defintion we have of "human" is what we each decide it is. Agreement is all nice and useful for getting along and making laws, but it's never a social construct we all would buy into.

One way of interpreting that might be to say that abortion only kills a person if you think it does, and if you think it does, it certainly does kill a person. Is that what you were getting at?

Not quite, no. Thinking aside (ironically), there is nothing that exists that isn't known to exist, therefore the nature of everything (for each of us) is a body of knowledge, i.e. information about it/our ideas about it. The function of the builder is to organize all the bits of information, and that's done in different ways unique to individuals and unique to different perspectives an individual might adopt. "Kills a person" is one of those ways. "Remove some cell tissue" might be another.

 

[DallasApple]

I think the big difference is that a fetus or embryo doesn't need anything special for it to turn into a human (or other animal). A sperm needs to be actively helped to become something more. If you just let the fetus do its thing, it'll automatically turn into a human. If you do the same with a sperm, it'll just die, or at the very least stay a sperm. (Not that I'm arguing one way or the other here. I just wanted to point this out.)

You have got to be kidding me?From the moment of conception that sperm and egg needs something "special"..Otherwise we woudl be like fish.The "fetus" doesnt do its "thing" without fallopian tube to travel down to find a uterus to attach to for the only security chance it has to find a bloodline to the mother to be oxygenated and fed (her)nutrients..As well as protection from any outside elements directly.Her body organs filter out toxins ..her body organs put nutrients in her blood.It is HER oxygen nutrients and womb that shelter the growing cells.It doesnt "do its own thing" .Not to mention labor and birth is not a "fetus" doing its own thing.

There is no "automatically" turning into a human.There is an already human incubating and delivering .Your right..a sperm needs somethign to survive.And so does an egg and a sperm that "connected"...And that is the mothers BODY .And its at HER risk..

Love

Dallas

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*** MOD POST ***

Please note that this thread has been moved to Same Faith Debates.​

 

[Magic Man]

You have got to be kidding me?From the moment of conception that sperm and egg needs something "special"..Otherwise we woudl be like fish.The "fetus" doesnt do its "thing" without fallopian tube to travel down to find a uterus to attach to for the only security chance it has to find a bloodline to the mother to be oxygenated and fed (her)nutrients..As well as protection from any outside elements directly.Her body organs filter out toxins ..her body organs put nutrients in her blood.It is HER oxygen nutrients and womb that shelter the growing cells.It doesnt "do its own thing" .Not to mention labor and birth is not a "fetus" doing its own thing.

There is no "automatically" turning into a human.There is an already human incubating and delivering .Your right..a sperm needs somethign to survive.And so does an egg and a sperm that "connected"...And that is the mothers BODY .And its at HER risk..

Love

Dallas

The point is that once the embryo is there, you have to take action to stop it from becoming a human (most of the time). You have to consciously not give it the nutrients it needs or even more drastically drink something to harm it or do some other procedure.

With a sperm, you can just let it sit there, and it will not become a human. There's no action required to make it not become human.

 

[Copernicus]

The point is that once the embryo is there, you have to take action to stop it from becoming a human (most of the time). You have to consciously not give it the nutrients it needs or even more drastically drink something to harm it or do some other procedure.

This is true. Abortion is the action that you are talking about, but the question is whether such an action is moral. And, if moral, does it ever reach a stage in the pregnancy where abortion in itself would be an immoral act? (I'm not just thinking of cases where the mother's life or health is threatened.) This is not such an easy question to answer, because one could imagine arriving at the absolutely nutty idea that everyone should be producing babies all the time in order not to deprive any potential person of a life. The other bad extreme would be infanticide.

With a sperm, you can just let it sit there, and it will not become a human. There's no action required to make it not become human.

What do you think a condom is for?

 

[Magic Man]

This is true. Abortion is the action that you are talking about, but the question is whether such an action is moral. And, if moral, does it ever reach a stage in the pregnancy where abortion in itself would be an immoral act? (I'm not just thinking of cases where the mother's life or health is threatened.) This is not such an easy question to answer, because one could imagine arriving at the absolutely nutty idea that everyone should be producing babies all the time in order not to deprive any potential person of a life. The other bad extreme would be infanticide.

I was not getting into that, though. I was just pointing out that there is a clear line between a sperm and an embryo. I was responding to the idea of "potential", as you brought up. Sure, a sperm has the potential to become a human, but it needs some help. An embryo on the other hand doesn't need any special help. That's all. You can easily draw the line between the two.

What do you think a condom is for?

I don't understand your point here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't understand your point here.

Using a condom is one example of an action that can be taken so that human life from sperm doesn't "just happen".

 

[Magic Man]

Using a condom is one example of an action that can be taken so that human life from sperm doesn't "just happen".

Right, but you'd still be doing an action that caused it to become a human. If you're using a condom, that means you're performing an action that would make that sperm become human. That's why you're using the condom in the first place. If you don't perform that action, then the sperm won't become human.

 

[rojse]

Thats why we can kill them all off if we wanted to right? Along with every other creature. And not because we are stronger than every other animal, because we have the intelligence to create things that can be the 'strength' for us.

I was referencing "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and see no need to respond.

 

[rojse]

How does this change anything..? What point are you trying to make?
I still think the worlds flat.
It's still not true.

The point I am trying to make is that with your lack of life experience, you could well be the flat-earther in this regard.

 

[DallasApple]

The point is that once the embryo is there, you have to take action to stop it from becoming a human (most of the time). You have to consciously not give it the nutrients it needs or even more drastically drink something to harm it or do some other procedure.

With a sperm, you can just let it sit there, and it will not become a human. There's no action required to make it not become human.

A sperm has the potential to become human if people dont leave them in condoms or "other places" where they are being denied the chance to become human.Why deliberately deny the sperm a chance and opportunity to become a human life?

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

The point is that once the embryo is there, you have to take action to stop it from becoming a human (most of the time). You have to consciously not give it the nutrients it needs or even more drastically drink something to harm it or do some other procedure.

With a sperm, you can just let it sit there, and it will not become a human. There's no action required to make it not become human.

The point is ..A woman has to be alive for the egg and sperm to survive..And SHE have to be willing to host(untill it divides cells enough times ) .HER body is USED..Thats the "point"..No fertalized egg does its thing on its own..It does it using a womans body..

Love

DAllas

 

[Willamena]

I still think the worlds flat.
It's still not true.

Depends on what you choose to call "the world." If it's "everything" then yeah, it's flat. It's spread out there on that screen on which the world is projected to me.

 

[gnostic]

I am pro-choice. I believed that the woman have the final choice, if she wants to abort or not.

And women should be able to get abortions safely in hospitals or clinics, without interference from pro-life anti-abortionists, religious leaders or their followers, and governments; for they should have no say in this.

I am, however, against forced abortion, such as the state sanction done by China's government in its one-child policy. I understand why they did it because of their population, but to force women to go through such procedures is pure barbaric.

I am against any man, family, hospital or clinic, community or government that would force abortions. It's the woman's body,

These would be the only times that I am against abortions.

 

[crystalonyx]

The woman has the right to choose, period, not be subjecticated to the beliefs of the church down the street, or a nanny state.

 

[Magic Man]

A sperm has the potential to become human if people dont leave them in condoms or "other places" where they are being denied the chance to become human.Why deliberately deny the sperm a chance and opportunity to become a human life?

Love

Dallas

Because not every sperm is going to turn into a human. I'm not sure how else to say this. You have to specifically perform a particular action to make the sperm turn into a human. You don't have to do anything out of the ordinary for an embryo to become human. It'll do that on its own.

All I'm saying is that the argument from "potential" stops at conception.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All I'm saying is that the argument from "potential" stops at conception.

Unless the argument is religiously-based, and then all bets are off. Since there's no particular reason to say that a "soul" enters at conception, there's also no reason to say that the "soul" wasn't present in the egg (or sperm) before conception... if you take it as given that a newborn baby has a soul that it received at some point at or before birth, of course.

 

[Magic Man]

Unless the argument is religiously-based, and then all bets are off. Since there's no particular reason to say that a "soul" enters at conception, there's also no reason to say that the "soul" wasn't present in the egg (or sperm) before conception... if you take it as given that a newborn baby has a soul that it received at some point at or before birth, of course.

Of course. But if your argument is religion-based, then you could use pretty much any excuse you want.

 

[rockondon]

I'm pro-choice. Who am I to poke my nose into other people's situations, deprive others of their right to abortion based on my beliefs or my sense of morality? Who am I to think that what I think is morally right is better than someone else's morals? Who am I to pass judgement on a situation that I am not involved in, know nothing about, and feel none of the emotions that are overwhelming the ones who really are involved. What kind of ******* would I be to stare dispassionately at other people and dictate to them to keep the baby in all situations, regardless if the baby has deformity, disease, if it was a product of rape, endangers the mother, etc.
/pro-choice

But wait! Abortion ends something that has the potential to grow up to be a person! And if you don't do everything you can to make it live its murder! So when someone in the bar makes eye contact with you, you have to screw them as fast and as many times as possible - because that has the potential to lead to a life. If you don't have unprotected sex with everything you see then you're a murderer.
/pro-life

I'll stick with pro-choice thx.

 

[DallasApple]

Because not every sperm is going to turn into a human. I'm not sure how else to say this. You have to specifically perform a particular action to make the sperm turn into a human. You don't have to do anything out of the ordinary for an embryo to become human. It'll do that on its own.

All I'm saying is that the argument from "potential" stops at conception.

All Im saying is yes a woman has to do something out of the "ordinary" to incubate a fertilized egg for 40 weeks and deliver a full term baby.Its HER body that is being put under enormous stress.With risk factors including dangerous high blood pressure..gestanional diabetes. anemia..not to mention the birth which carries a risk as high as death..Oh and not to mention the potential for permanent disfiguration and scarring and nerve damage.

Most women do not come out "unscathed" by pregnancy and childbirth.Its anything but "ordinary" for HER.

And thats just(part) of the physical side of it(potentionally)..We arent even mentioning the emotional and psycological aspects.

So saying that you have to "specifically perform an action" to make a "sperm turn into a human" and after that you dont have to do anything out of the "ordinary" tells me that you are a man.A man that YES you are right does "nothing out of the ordinary".

Love

Dallas