Atheist vs Theist

[Thief]

Sure it can deal with it. Mainly because it simply points out the irrationality of assuming the necessity of god in the system.

If god neither answers any questions, and even adds more questions, then it isn't really playing a useful role.


You've completely avoided the problem. If this universe is complex and needs a creator, who created the complex creator? A complex creator just adds another layer, so there's no reason to claim it's necessary.

Getting a god involved doesn't provide any answers.

And you're going to wait until someone super smart discovers a God equation?

And it's important to have more questions than answers.

Do you think it's fun...knowing all things?
It's easy to be God....ha.. ha

 

[Penumbra]

And you're going to wait until someone super smart discovers a God equation?

Probably not going to happen. If there are no gods, then nobody is going to find proof of them. And even if gods do exist, they would conceivably be fully capable of either hiding or revealing themselves.

And it's important to have more questions than answers.

And that's exactly why I don't make up answers for which I cannot justify.

Arguing that the universe is complex and therefore needs a designer, but that this claimed complex designer doesn't need an explanation, is an unjustified answer.

 

[Thief]

Probably not going to happen. If there are no gods, then nobody is going to find proof of them. And even if gods do exist, they would conceivably be fully capable of either hiding or revealing themselves.


And that's exactly why I don't make up answers for which I cannot justify.

Arguing that the universe is complex and therefore needs a designer, but that this claimed complex designer doesn't need an explanation, is an unjustified answer.

Not at all....it's just not the answer you want.

Obviously you are relying on numbers and logic.
That's fine for questions of numbers and logic.

God is logical?

Take another look in the mirror.

 

[Penumbra]

Not at all....it's just not the answer you want.

Obviously you are relying on numbers and logic.
That's fine for questions of numbers and logic.

God is logical?

Take another look in the mirror.

So basically what you're saying is that you don't have a response.

Arguments like the common watchmaker argument rely on logic up to a point, until they are discredited, and at that time they cry foul and assert that logic isn't important. It's straightforward intellectual dishonesty.

If that's all it was, then it wouldn't be a big problem. If people were simply making transparently irrational arguments, then it wouldn't be a big deal, other than that societies benefit from reason.

But then layering on top of these types of arguments, people begin to build specific god concepts. "Not only does god exist, but these are his attributes and he wants you to do this...." "Since god exists, we should outlaw this..." "Do not yoke yourself with the unbeliever..."

And then things get bad and worth arguing against. Basic things like putting "In God we Trust" on currency is a benign irrationality, but things like reducing science in a science class, or making it illegal for two people of the same sex who love each other to get married, or instituting Sharia law, or tricking misguided people to fly planes into buildings for paradise, or telling kids that if they don't behave right or believe certain things, they might wind up in hell, are absurd.

 

[Thief]

So basically what you're saying is that you don't have a response.

Arguments like the common watchmaker argument rely on logic up to a point, until they are discredited, and at that time they cry foul and assert that logic isn't important. It's straightforward intellectual dishonesty.

Logic fails...it's not dishonest to say so.
I readily admit it.
And then use something else.

If that's all it was, then it wouldn't be a big problem. If people were simply making transparently irrational arguments, then it wouldn't be a big deal, other than that societies benefit from reason.

But then layering on top of these types of arguments, people begin to build specific god concepts. "Not only does god exist, but these are his attributes and he wants you to do this...." "Since god exists, we should outlaw this..." "Do not yoke yourself with the unbeliever..."

I don't hold to dogma....so I agree.

And then things get bad and worth arguing against. Basic things like putting "In God we Trust" on currency is a benign irrationality, but things like reducing science in a science class, or making it illegal for two people of the same sex who love each other to get married, or instituting Sharia law, or tricking misguided people to fly planes into buildings for paradise, or telling kids that if they don't behave right or believe certain things, they might wind up in hell, are absurd.

Irrational?....yes.
But to fix it with equations and lab results?...not likely.

Guidance comes from Someone greater than yourself.
Or perhaps you aspire to being your own God?

 

[Penumbra]

Logic fails...it's not dishonest to say so.
I readily admit it.

Like all arguments for god, you began by using logic until it didn't work in your favor anymore. It's certain arguments that fail, not logic itself.

And then use something else.

You haven't used anything else.

I don't hold to dogma....so I agree.

How many gods are there? 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or more?
Is reincarnation true, or is there a permanent afterlife after this one? Or is there no afterlife at all?
Does everyone go there, or only some?
Is god nice or mean?
Is homosexuality any less moral than heterosexuality in God's view?
Does god interact with humanity at all?
Is he aware of what happens on earth at all?

I've seen you put forth beliefs on this forum before regarding your god. Like how only people who believe will be prepared. Pretty much any definitive assertion regarding god leads to dogma, it's just a matter of how specific and complex their dogma is.

Unless you answer "I have absolutely no idea" for every one of those questions, you're using dogma, unless you can specifically justify your assertions.

Irrational?....yes.
But to fix it with equations and lab results?...not likely.

Guidance comes from Someone greater than yourself.
Or perhaps you aspire to being your own God?

That being needs to exist before it can guide anyone.

I'm not a god; I'm a human.

 

[Thief]

Like all arguments for god, you began by using logic until it didn't work in your favor anymore. It's certain arguments that fail, not logic itself.

Logic doesn't cover all things.

You haven't used anything else.

Have been using an open mind?

How many gods are there? 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or more?

It is written...'ye are gods'.

Is reincarnation true, or is there a permanent afterlife after this one? Or is there no afterlife at all?

Yes to all.

Does everyone go there, or only some?

You go where you fit in.

Is god nice or mean?

Depends on you.

Is homosexuality any less moral than heterosexuality in God's view?
Does god interact with humanity at all?
Is he aware of what happens on earth at all?

And you need God to micromanage?

I've seen you put forth beliefs on this forum before regarding your god. Like how only people who believe will be prepared. Pretty much any definitive assertion regarding god leads to dogma, it's just a matter of how specific and complex their dogma is.

Only how complex your thinking is...or isn't.
What if God deals with you as your own reflection?

Unless you answer "I have absolutely no idea" for every one of those questions, you're using dogma, unless you can specifically justify your assertions.

That being needs to exist before it can guide anyone.

I'm not a god; I'm a human.

Not for long.

Your list of questions look like retort rather than logic.
Did you want to use something else?

 

[Penumbra]

Logic doesn't cover all things.

Have been using an open mind?

You still haven't demonstrated what you're using besides logic. Basically you're just making assertions and expecting people to take them at face value.

It is written...'ye are gods'.

Yes to all.

You go where you fit in.

Depends on you.

And what do you base these answers on?

And you need God to micromanage?

No,it's a question regarding your belief.

Only how complex your thinking is...or isn't.
What if God deals with you as your own reflection?

Then that is an assertion regarding God's behavior, and should be justified.

Not for long.

Your list of questions look like retort rather than logic.
Did you want to use something else?

I've already demonstrated logically why your initial argument doesn't hold, and there hasn't been any serious argument against it, so my job's pretty easy at this point.

These were questions meant to point out how you're making assertions that you cannot justify, unless you wish to justify them.

 

[Penumbra]

Why? You will never get the other side to budge, you will never prove your side, you will never disprove their side. You can no more prove the universe was created by God than you can there is no God.
If God is to be controlling the universe, understanding how the universe functions certainly won't change how it appears to operate. And yes life being here on earth does depend on alot of "fine tuning" and had things happened even slightly differently we probably wouldn't be here, but since it did happen that doesn't automatically mean God created life.

It's also worth noting that when two or more people debate on a public forum, just because neither side has moved doesn't mean there wasn't utility in the debate.

The nature of a public forum is that there are observers who see the arguments lead to their conclusion.

 

[Thief]

You still haven't demonstrated what you're using besides logic. Basically you're just making assertions and expecting people to take them at face value.


And what do you base these answers on?

No,it's a question regarding your belief.

Then that is an assertion regarding God's behavior, and should be justified.

I've already demonstrated logically why your initial argument doesn't hold, and there hasn't been any serious argument against it, so my job's pretty easy at this point.

These were questions meant to point out how you're making assertions that you cannot justify, unless you wish to justify them.

So now it looks like your acceptance is wrapped around the word...'justify'.

And God is required to justify Himself to you?
Who is greater?

I am required to say as I do...by your grace?...really?

 

[Penumbra]

So now it looks like your acceptance is wrapped around the word...'justify'.

Asserting things that one cannot defend, justify, support, or effectively argue is not worthwhile.

And God is required to justify Himself to you?
Who is greater?

I am required to say as I do...by your grace?...really?

Gods are not required to justify their existence, but if they expect belief then they logically should provide reason for that belief. Otherwise it's completely irrational.

If I go to great lengths to avoid detection by neighbors, and am skillful enough to ensure that they never see me entering or exiting my door, and I make sure no sound or light ever escapes, and I let mail and paper build up in my box and in front of my door, and don't pay any utility services, and I pay the landlord to lie and say my apartment is vacant, and I keep no furniture and so when people look inside, it's empty, then it's foolish of me to expect people to identify me and my attributes.

 

[Thief]

Asserting things that one cannot defend, justify, support, or effectively argue is not worthwhile.

Gods are not required to justify their existence, but if they expect belief then they logically should provide reason for that belief. Otherwise it's completely irrational.

If I go to great lengths to avoid detection by neighbors, and am skillful enough to ensure that they never see me entering or exiting my door, and I make sure no sound or light ever escapes, and I let mail and paper build up in my box and in front of my door, and don't pay any utility services, and I pay the landlord to lie and say my apartment is vacant, and I keep no furniture and so when people look inside, it's empty, then it's foolish of me to expect people to identify me and my attributes.

And if you walk into an empty room....nothing.
But there is the room.

Walk into a room with a table....
Someone has been there.

Find a coin....
The coin will have something you can say about the person who left it.

Find the coin spinning....
Someone is close by.
He may be standing right behind you.

No doubt you have seen my postings about the snap of God's fingers?

 

[Penumbra]

And if you walk into an empty room....nothing.
But there is the room.

Walk into a room with a table....
Someone has been there.

Find a coin....
The coin will have something you can say about the person who left it.

Find the coin spinning....
Someone is close by.
He may be standing right behind you.

No doubt you have seen my postings about the snap of God's fingers?

Spinning coins and such constitute evidence. So it goes back to logic, as it always does.

 

[Thief]

Spinning coins and such constitute evidence. So it goes back to logic, as it always does.

And all things above your head do not spin?

 

[The Joker]

Say you have a son who doesnt know but you send him letters to let to let him know of your existance and you give him the basic needs of life but sometimes you dont help so that he can learn to appreciate the you and the good times... suddenly this boy begins to think you dont exist even though you help and just because he hasnt seen you decides that there is no evidence that you really exist..thats almost the situation with God

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Say you have a son who doesnt know but you send him letters to let to let him know of your existance and you give him the basic needs of life but sometimes you dont help so that he can learn to appreciate the you and the good times... suddenly this boy begins to think you dont exist even though you help and just because he hasnt seen you decides that there is no evidence that you really exist..thats almost the situation with God

So where are the letters from god? How do I know what letters are real and which ones are forgeries?

 

[Thief]

Why? You will never get the other side to budge, you will never prove your side, you will never disprove their side. You can no more prove the universe was created by God than you can there is no God.
If God is to be controlling the universe, understanding how the universe functions certainly won't change how it appears to operate. And yes life being here on earth does depend on alot of "fine tuning" and had things happened even slightly differently we probably wouldn't be here, but since it did happen that doesn't automatically mean God created life.

So by default you must argue.....substance begets life.

I can never agree.

Substance might move about.....but that is not life.
Substance cannot bestow life.
The dead cannot beget the living.

 

[paarsurrey]

One could not make a court case for the existance of any god, and stand any sort of a chance.

One can however make a solid case that ancient hebrews created the abrahamic god using previous pagan religions in there past and compiling them into their own semetic religion. And win it.

It is totally wrong and misleading notion;G-d revealed himself to the truthful prophets; that is the basis of Monotheism; Word revealed from G-d is the base or the original source of Monotheism.

Being a Hebrew is not the basis of Monotheism.

Example:

Zoroaster was a Monotheist.

Regards

 

[ScuzManiac]

It is totally wrong and misleading notion;G-d revealed himself to the truthful prophets; that is the basis of Monotheism; Word revealed from G-d is the base or the original source of Monotheism.

Being a Hebrew is not the basis of Monotheism.

Example:

Zoroaster was a Monotheist.

Regards

:sarcastic

 

[idav]

So by default you must argue.....substance begets life.

I can never agree.

Substance might move about.....but that is not life.
Substance cannot bestow life.
The dead cannot beget the living.

There is nothing to make me assume the earth or universe started out dead.